HC Deb 03 May 1990 vol 171 cc1195-7
4. Mr. Knox

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people were in prison at the most recent count.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Waddington)

On Friday 27 April the total prison population in England and Wales was 45,948. That is 3,513 fewer than that on 28 April 1989, when the population stood at 49,461.

The latest projections of the prison population, based on information available to the autumn of 1989, suggest a continuing growth in population over the next five years to a total of 57,100 in 1995, but the fall since then has been very encouraging. The projections will be revised to take account of these changes and the proposals in the White Paper "Crime. Justice, and Protecting the Public" in due course.

Mr. Knox

I welcome the decline in the prison population in recent months, but does my right hon. and learned Friend expect it to continue to fall in future, and is he taking steps to try wherever possible to keep people out of prison?

Mr. Waddington

The central theme of the White Paper is that we should ensure that we do not send to prison unnecessarily those guilty of less serious crimes, but at the same time provide adequate powers of punishment so that the courts can give serious and severe sentences to those guilty of violent crime. In publishing the White Paper we were not embarking on a new course; we were building on the success of proposals introduced by the Government during the, past eight years. I am happy to be able to tell my hon. Friend that part of the fall in the prison population during the past 12 months has been due to the fact that many fewer young offenders have been sent to prison. That is an encouraging trend which I hope will develop as a result of the White Paper.

Mr. Maclennan

Does the Home Secretary agree that the present prison overcrowding, and regimes that provide prisoners with no useful occupation, are more conducive to recidivism than to reform? Does he agree, given the natural distress of those involved in the Strangeways disturbance, which has led to cries for industrial action of a kind that seems most unwelcome, that the time has come seriously to examine with prison officers the inadequacies of the existing regimes?

Mr. Waddington

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is important to bend our efforts towards the improvement of prison regimes. One sad consequence of the recent outbreaks of rioting is that the damage done to cells is a real setback to our plans. One need only read the report of the chief inspector of prisons on the improvements made at Strangeways during the 12 months before the riot to recognise that a great tribute should be paid to him for making such great improvements. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is important to continue to tackle, the issues, but we are confronted with major problems now because of the loss of accommodation resulting from the riots.

Sir John Wheeler

My right hon. and learned Friend will welcome the dramatic and increasing reduction in the prison population. I know that he is equally concerned about the conditions for people who must be sent to prison or placed on remand. My right hon. and learned Friend will be aware that some members of the Home Affairs Select Committee visited Strangeways on Monday. Is he aware of the very high regard that the staff have for the governor of that institution? Is he aware also of the high morale that prevails, and of the great courage that they have displayed over the past 25 days? Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that what Manchester and its staff need most of all is the remand prison brought back into use as soon as possible?

Mr. Waddington

I am glad to be able to tell the House that during the past 12 months there has been a considerable fall in the remand population. However, I agree with my hon. Friend that we should continue to address that matter. I am grateful for his remarks about the governor of Strangeways and all the prison officers working there. I certainly pay tribute to them. An assessment of the structural damage to the wings at Manchester is being made. When it is completed, we shall review the various options for the prison's future. Obviously I can see the attractions, and the importance to the staff, of bringing at least part of the prison back into use as soon as possible.

Mr. Randall

Notwithstanding the figures that the Home Secretary has just given the House, does not he accept that the Government's prison reform policy has moved at the speed of a tortoise? We are in 1990, yet too many prisoners are still locked up in cells for more than 20 hours a day in appalling conditions, and have inadequate opportunities for education and exercise. Has not the Government's continuing indifference and complacency over the past decade contributed to the kind of situation that arose at Strangeways?

Mr. Waddington

That is an extraordinary comment. As the Labour party is so coy these days about revealing its policies and how much they will cost, perhaps the hon. Gentleman will come back next time and tell the House how much an incoming Labour Government would spend on a new prison building programme. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that we introduced the first substantial prison building programme this century. It involves constructing no fewer than 28 prisons, and the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that eight of them have already been completed. For a member of a party that did precisely nothing about prisons when it was in office, the hon. Gentleman's remarks are sheer cheek.

Mr. David Nicholson

As my right hon. and learned Friend reflects on the unfortunate events at Strangeways, perhaps he will recall the famous remark made by Lloyd George to Churchill in the Norway debate of 1940, that Churchill should not turn himself into an air raid shelter to protect those who were really responsible. Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that, while we on the Conservative Benches know that he will take responsibility for his Department like the honourable man that he is, we believe that he should not protect people who have given bad advice or who have not fully passed on information?

Mr. Waddington

I note what my hon. Friend says. I have already made the position perfectly clear. I have no intention whatever of placing the blame on officials. I can only tell the House the truth, which is that there is a chain of command. The deputy director-general reported to me about these matters and I did not veto any proposals that he or the governor put to me.