Local Government Finance (Hansard, 2 May 1990)

§ 8. Mr. Salmond
To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he proposes to bring forward any changes to the poll tax legislation in the present Session.

§ 11. Mr. Sillars
To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he proposes to bring forward any changes to the poll tax legislation in the present Session.

§ Mr. Rifkind
I refer to the answer that I gave earlier to the hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Mr. Douglas).

§ Mr. Salmond
As a non-payer of the poll tax and one who is proud to he part of the campaign that will sink it, I want the Secretary of State for Scotland to answer the following question clearly and unambiguously: will the coming changes to the legislation be backdated to cover the full year in which the people of Scotland had to face the full brunt of the unamended poll tax, or will the Secretary of State make a mess of it once again and fail to defend Scotland's interests as he did during the Budget fiasco?

§ Mr. Rifkind
If there were to be any changes to the community charge, of course we would ensure that they were applied in a way that was fair to Scotland. If the hon. Gentleman continues in his attempt to brand himself as a lawbreaker, he should contemplate the effect that the local income tax, which he supports, would have on his constituents. Does he realise that if a local income tax were introduced for the people of Peterhead and Fraserburgh in his constituency, a husband and wife on average earnings would have to pay £764 and a married couple on average earnings would have to pay more than £1,400? Does he think that his constituents welcome his belief in the local income tax when it would be so damaging to the economy of Fraserburgh, Peterhead and the rest of Banff and Buchan?

§ Mr. Sillars
Is the Secretary of State aware that he continues to give the impression that he has not yet grasped the fundamental objectionable aspect of the poll tax which is that it bears no relation to ability to pay? When he goes to the Cabinet committee that is reviewing the poll tax, will he explain to the woman in Downing 1022 street that ability to pay is based upon capacity to earn, that mentally and physically handicapped people, the unemployed, those on income support and single parents have no capacity to earn and that we shall judge his review on the basis of whether those people get the 100 per cent. rebate to which they are entitled under a just system?

§ Mr. Rifkind
The hon. Gentleman is right to say that ability to pay is an important consideration for those on low incomes. He knows very well that one in three people in Scotland, or indeed in Britain as a whole, do not pay the full community charge because of the rebate system. He knows that people on income support received an increase equivalent to their community charge contribution. The community charge with rebates is therefore a progressive taxation system for all those on low incomes. Any system of rebates that benefits one third of the population can be described in that way.

§ Mr. Bill Walker
Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that local income tax is not a part of the changes that he is contemplating? That would come as a relief o the provost of Perth and Kinross, who believes that a local income tax is not a part of the Scottish national party's policy and who is advising people to pay the community charge. The other SNP provost in Angus is not paying his community charge and is drawing his expenses as a councillor. Does not that clearly show that the SNP, even in a constituency such as mine, cannot speak with one voice? The SNP has different voices when speaking to different people in different places.

§ Mr. Rifkind
My hon. Friend is correct. Not only are members of the SNP speaking with different voices, but they have not done their homework. As we pointed out yesterday, a single nursing sister could pay more than £1,100 in local income tax, a junior doctor well over £1,000, a school principal over £1,600 and a social worker over £1,100. It is inevitable that any system of local government finance that excludes almost half the population from an obligation to pay puts a heavy burden on those who have to pay. That is why many people on average or modest earnings would find a local income tax crippling to their standard of living.

Mr. Robertson
What is the Tory alternative to the poll tax? When will the Government be able to give us the figures showing what people will have to pay under the new system?

§ Mr. Rifkind
I am hugely amused by the hon. Gentleman. We all know what the community charge costs and we have explained what local income taxes cost, but the Labour party has remained remarkably coy about what its proposals would cost. Why is the Labour party so reluctant to tell us? Why, in particular, will not the Labour party give the people of Scotland an assurance that, if the Leader of the Opposition would not touch the idea of a roof tax in England with a barge pole, it will not be introduced in Scotland either?

§ Mr. Nicholas Bennett
Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that there is something fundamentally undemocratic about well-heeled, freeloading scroungers who are elected to public office in this House and elsewhere seeking to get support for a change in the law and not obeying the law—

Hon. Members
Order.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Member must withdraw the comment about freeloading scroungers in this House.

§ Mr. Bennett
May I replace it with the word "spongers", Mr. Speaker? Can you advise me what word I should use?

§ Mr. Speaker
I am asking the hon. Member to withdraw the phrase "freeloading scroungers".

§ Mr. Bennett
I withdraw the words "freeloading scroungers" and replace them by referring to those who do not pay their dues to society and who expect others to pay their dues for them.

§ Mr. Ron Brown
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Rifkind
There is something disreputable about freeloading hon. Members who expect their constituents to pay their lawful taxes but who themselves refuse to do so, thereby imposing an even heavier burden on the rest of the community.

§ Mr. Dewar
Does the Secretary of State accept that he does not strengthen his case by descending to appalling misrepresentation?

§ Mr. Douglas
Oh, my God. The Labour party—

§ Mr. Dewar
As this famous committee has been set up to take the Government out of their present confusion over the poll tax, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm that there will be relief for Scottish poll tax payers by this summer? Can he guarantee that, as Scotland was first—

§ Mr. Douglas
Dunderheids.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Member must contain himself.

§ Mr. Dewar
Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that, as Scotland was first burdened by the poll tax, he has the ability to initiate reforms rather than follow lamely behind others, as has happened so far? Given the Prime Minister's admissions about the fatal flaws in the poll tax, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman hold to his unlikely boast earlier this month that this is a tax which works and is here to stay? Before the Secretary of State gets too carried away with the opinion poll to which he has referred several times, will he confirm that 50 per cent. of the sample made it clear that people rejected the poll tax and wanted a property-based assessment, which is the area in which the Labour party is operating? Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise that if he continues to argue the popularity of the poll tax, he will look more and more like a latter-day King Canute?

§ Mr. Rifkind
The community charge is here to stay. If there are any improvements to the charge, of course they will apply throughout the United Kingdom. It does not surprise me that 30 to 40 per cent. would like to see the rates back. That is exactly the proportion who did not pay a penny of tax under the old rating system. Given his total refusal to give us any details of what the roof tax would cost, if the hon. Gentleman wishes to describe me as a latter-day King Canute, I have to describe him as a latter-day fiddler on the roof.