HC Deb 02 May 1990 vol 171 cc1018-20
6. Mr. Douglas

To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the progress of discussions his Department is having with regard to the implementation of alterations in procedures relating to the poll tax in Scotland.

Mr. Rifkind

I keep all aspects of the community charge arrangements under review and I would be prepared to make changes if they were required.

Mr. Douglas

Will the Secretary of State have a little pity for the two dunderheads on the Opposition Benches who cannot give answers about the roof tax—[Interruption.] Let no Labour Member—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. Questions must be addressed through me.

Mr. Douglas

Will the Secretary of State tell us what role he is playing in the Cabinet committee? If he is not playing any role, will he get into the ministerial limousine, shut his colleagues in it, and go and tell the grocer's daughter that the tills are empty, the books are not balancing and the poll tax should be scrapped?

Mr. Rifkind

I can understand the hon. Gentleman's repugnance at the proposal of his former colleagues in the Labour party for a roof tax because the hon. Gentleman's views appear to be shared by 85 per cent. of Labour voters in Scotland who, according to the recent opinion poll in The Scotsman, reject the roof tax as a means of raising local government finance. The hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members should reflect on the fact that the debate in Scotland over the past few weeks has shown that while no system of local government taxation is popular, the roof tax proposed by the Labour party is the most unpopular system yet put forward by any party.

Sir Hector Monro

If my right hon. and learned Friend were contemplating any alteration, surely he would not change the position whereby a widow living in her own home pays only one community charge in contrast with Labour's roof tax, under which she might well be paying double. Would not that be intolerable and unfair on elderly folk, particularly pensioners?

Mr. Rifkind

My hon. Friend is right. As under the old rating system, so under Labour's roof tax, if an elderly pensioner is unfortunate enough to be bereaved the tax is not changed by one penny, whereas one of the advantages of the community charge or the poll tax is that a widow or widower immediately sees the tax burden reduced by half. How can the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) claim that his roof tax is a fair system of taxation when it penalises pensioners in that way?

Mr. McAllion

At the last Scottish Question Time, the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton), told us that he believed that the poll tax was working well in Scotland, so why is it necessary for the Secretary of State to join a Cabinet committee set up to change the poll tax? Does more than a year of poll tax agony in Scotland count for so much less with the Government than under a month of poll tax agony in England and Wales?

Mr. Rifkind

On the contrary, our experience in Scotland has shown that local authorities are becoming increasingly accountable to their electorate. When I made that point at the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities conference I was interested to hear a senior Labour councillor inform me that community charge increases this year were only at the rate of inflation in Scotland because there were local elections this year—it had nothing to do with accountability. That is exactly the point, and that is why the community charge is fairer and more acceptable than the old rating system or the Labour party's roof tax.

Mr. Allan Stewart

Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that under present procedures Conservative-controlled Eastwood district council has reduced its poll tax by 30 per cent? He may also be aware that a recent opinion poll in Eastwood showed that more than 90 per cent. of Eastwood residents supported the Keep Eastwood out of Glasgow campaign, to which I am parliamentary adviser. Will he urgently consider a change of procedure in relation to those Scottish National party councillors who refuse to pay the poll tax but put in expenses claims? Is not it hypocrisy and an outrage that councillor Gordon Murray of Cumbernauld district council has put in an expenses claim for £20,000—a huge burden on poll tax payers—but refuses to pay his own poll tax?

Mr. Rifkind

It is typical of nationalist councillors to encourage the rest of the population to disobey the law while claiming expenses which have to be met by those paying the community charge.

Mr. Maxton

If the right hon. and learned Gentleman is interested in opinion polls in Eastwood, will he confirm that a recent opinion poll in Eastwood district showed that whereas last year 70 per cent. of the electorate there were in favour of the poll tax, now only 50 per cent. are in favour of it, and they are those who benefit mostly from the tax? Will the Secretary of State speak for the people of Scotland for a change and make it clear to the special committee that after one year's experience in Scotland it is clear that no tinkering with the poll tax will get rid of its basic unfairness or end the administrative nightmare and that only abolition will do? If he is so concerned about pensioners in Scotland, why does he not use any money that he gets from the committee to get rid of the minimum 20 per cent. payment which hits the poorest in our society, including many pensioners?

Mr. Rifkind

I, and I think most people, would be more impressed by the 50 per cent. of the people of Eastwood who support the poll tax than by the 10 per cent. of people in Scotland who support Labour's roof tax, which was rejected by the other 90 per cent. With regard to the position of pensioners, at least the Government, unlike the Labour party, do not put forward a system of taxation that we know to be so unfair that the Labour party has to say in advance that pensioners could defer the payment of their roof tax until they died. What better indictment could there be from Labour's own mouth of the iniquities of its proposals and their damaging effect on the elderly in Scotland?