First Division Association (Hansard, 26 March 1990)

§ 76. Mr. Barry Field
To ask the Minister for the Civil Service when he last met representatives of the First Division Association; and what matters were discussed.

§ Mr. Luce
I have not done so recently.

§ Mr. Field
Did my right hon. Friend read the report in The Times on 19 March of an interview with Sir Robin Butler? Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is another example of the open government that was promised as policy by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister? Will he confirm that he will consult the First Division Association about the disestablishment of the Church of England now that His Grace the Archbishop of Canterbury has announced his resignation and—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. That is a little wide of Civil Service questions.

§ Mr. Field
It is a constitutional reform—

§ Mr. Speaker
Perhaps, but one question at a time.

§ Mr. Field
It is a constitutional reform, Mr. Speaker, which I think will be very popular.

§ Mr. Speaker
It may be, but that has little to do with the First Division Association.

§ Mr. Luce
I am most flattered that my hon. Friend considers that I have such a wide range of responsibilities. Having taken a keen interest in the establishment of Government agencies, he will know that it gives scope for much more open government, because the chief executives of those agencies can give evidence to Select Committees if they wish. Through that procedure, performance targets and measurements can be assessed by Parliament.

Mr. Alan Williams
Does the Minister realise that what he has just said about appeals has long been accepted, but was seriously damaged when the head of the Civil Service admitted that, at Ministers' behest, he had been economical with the truth? That statement did an enormous amount to undermine the integrity of the Civil Service. Does he accept that since then civil servants have, understandably, had great misgivings about what they used to consider a reliable appeals system? Many now believe that they need an outside and impartial point of appeal.

§ Mr. Luce
The right hon. Gentleman is entitled to his views. However, I should point out that the procedures that allow civil servants to appeal on matters of conscience—ultimately to the professional head of the Civil Service —have been in operation only since late 1987. I do not believe that it is true that confidence in the professional head of the Civil Service, Sir Robin Butler, has been in any way undermined—it is strong. I consider him an outstanding civil servant, and the vast majority, if not all, of the Civil Service feels the same.