National Health Service and Community Care Bill (Hansard, 13 March 1990)

HC Deb 13 March 1990 vol 169 cc178-441 178

§ As amended ( in the Standing Committee), considered.

§ [The following Reports and Minutes of Evidence of the Social Services Committee are relevant: Eighth Report, Session 1988–89, resourcing the National Health Service: the Government's plans for the future of the NHS (House of Commons Paper No. 214-III); Second Report, Session 1989–90, Community Care: Future funding of Private and Voluntary Residential Care (House of Commons Paper No. 257); Third Report, Session 1989–90, Community Care: Funding for local authorities (House of Commons Paper No. 277); Minutes of Evidence taken on 17th, 24th and 31st January 1990 (House of Commons Papers Nos. 148-i, 173-i and 194-i); and the Government's Reply to the Eighth Report of Session 1988–89 (Cm. 851).]

4.44 pm

§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
I shall take a point of order on the new clause that we are about to debate.

§ Mr. Skinner
You referred, Mr. Speaker, to the debate that lasted almost six hours on the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Browne). The public had a good view of it because it was on television, certainly on some channels. As a result, people heard an hon. Member saying, "I'm awfully sorry that I didn't put this firm and this money in the register."
My hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) raised a point of order on the Bill that we are about to debate. The people who are watching television will think that it is a bit strange that we are debating the shifting of money from the public to the private sector, lining the pockets of trusts and the Tory Members who are involved in those trusts, yet this quaint little cock-eyed place, the House of Commons, will do nothing about it. They will find that odd.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. We had a full debate on the matter last week. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was not called due to the shortage of time.

§ Mr. Skinner
No, I did not put my name down. I tried to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should have sought to be called in order to make those points. However, I repeat that the House knows that Mr. Speaker has to interpret the rules as they are.

§ Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough and Horncastle)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not ironic that the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours), who is about as easy on the ear and as original as a neeedle stuck in a gramophone record, is the one member of the Standing Committee which considered the Bill whose election expenses are paid for by a Health Service union?

179

§ Mr. Speaker
If they are, no doubt the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) will declare that.

§ Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. We must get on.

§ Resolved, That the National Health Service and Community Care Bill, as amended, be considered in the following order, namely, new Clauses, Amendments to Clauses 1and 2, Schedule 1, Clause 26, Schedule 5, Clauses 3, 4, 28 and 5, Schedule 2, Clauses 6 to 11, Schedule 3, Clauses 29 to 31, Schedule 6, Clauses 12, 35, 13 to 17, 32, 18, 33, 19 and 20, Schedule 4, Clauses 34, 21, 36, 22, 37, 23, 38, 24, 25, 27, 39, 52, 40, 53, 41 to 43, 48, 44, 51, 45, 49, 46, 47, 50 and 54 to 56, Schedule 7, Clauses 57 to 61, Schedule 8, new Schedules, and Amendments to Schedule 9 and Clause 62.—[Mr. Kenneth Clarke.]

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Will you confirm that I, like every Labour Member of Parliament who might be sponsored, receive nothing personally from a union either as income or expenses? Despite the fact that the rules state clearly that hon. Members can vote on these matters, you have a discretion, in the light of public concern, to advise hon. Members not to vote in the Divisions that will take place during the next two and a half days, so will you please do so?

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I cannot answer the hon. Gentleman's first question. I have no idea what remuneration he may receive as a result of being sponsored by a union.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
Nothing.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to what the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) said last week in relation to sponsorship by a union.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
rose——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I am not having any more.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
You, Mr. Speaker, have just ruled——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I have not ruled. I am saying that I do not know.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
The Register of Members' Interests shows the position. May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to withdraw your statement that you have no idea?

§ Mr. Speaker
I take the hon. Gentleman's word for it.I have no responsibility for the personal declarations that are made in the register. That is not a matter for me. The hon. Gentleman has declared his interest.