§ 4. Mrs. RoeTo ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what are the most recent figures he has for the change in pensioners' incomes from savings.
§ Mr. NewtonNewly available figures show that between 1979 and 1987, pensioners' average income from savings more than doubled in real terms.
§ Mrs. RoeI am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. What proportion of retired people receive income from occupational pensions?
§ Mr. NewtonThe proportion of pensioners overall who have income from occupational pensions is just over half, but among more recently retired pensioners the figure is now nearly three quarters.
§ Mr. WinnickInstead of trying to defend the shabby way in which pensioners have been treated by the Government, will the Secretary of State explain why, time and again, pensioners are penalised because they have saved during their working lives? If they have accumulated a sum of money, even quite a modest one by present-day standards, they are penalised in receiving benefit and unable to get rebates. As the Secretary of State and the Minister are well known for being somewhat wet in the Tory party, why do not they have the guts to do what the Secretary of State for Wales has done?
§ Mr. NewtonPerhaps I may take the opportunity to remind the hon. Gentleman that, less than two years ago, the amount of capital that people could have and still receive supplementary benefit was only £3,000.
§ Mr. NewtonThe hon. Lady should check her facts before making sedentary interventions.
There is now a taper from £3,000 to £6,000. The hon. Gentleman knows that the limit for housing benefit was raised to £8,000.
§ Mr. David NicholsonIs my right hon. Friend aware that many people who thought that they had made adequate provision for their retirement saw their savings devastated because of the rate of inflation under the Labour Government in the 1970s? Is he further aware that there is concern among Conservative Members about the savings threshold, particularly for community charge benefit? It appears to be a tax on thrift and prudence, because retired people may lose all claim to rebates if they have made efforts to save during their working lives.
§ Mr. NewtonI recognise that the level at which capital limits are set is a matter for judgment. Our judgment was to increase them about two years ago, especially in relation to housing benefit and rate rebates. I hope that my hon. Friend will acknowledge that the more generous arrangements for community charge benefit than for rate rebates, in that it has a lower taper, will significantly help many people.