HC Deb 25 July 1990 vol 177 cc524-8

'.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), the Council for Licensed Conveyancers shall have the powers necessary to enable it to become—

  1. (a) an authorised body for the purposes of granting rights of audience under section 25(2)(a);
  2. (b) an authorised body for the purposes of granting rights to conduct litigation under section 26(2)(a); and
  3. (c) an approved body for the purposes of granting, in accordance with section 46, exemption from the provisions of section 23(1) of the Solicitors Act 1974 (preparation of probate papers).

(2) The Council may exercise the powers given to it by this section only with respect to persons who are licensed conveyancers.

(3) Where the Council—

  1. (a) becomes an authorised body for the purposes of section 25 and grants any right of audience;
  2. (b) becomes an authorised body for the purposes of section 26 and grants any right to conduct litigation; or
  3. (c) becomes an approved body for the purposes of section 46 and grants an exemption under that section,

it shall do so by issuing a licence to the licensed conveyancer to whom the right or exemption is being granted.

(4) Any such licence may be granted as a separate licence or as part of a composite licence comprising the licensed conveyancer's licence issued under Part II of the Administration of Justice Act 1985 and any other licence which the Council may grant to the licensed conveyancer concerned.

(5) The Council's general duty shall include the duty to ensure that the standards of competence and professional conduct among licensed conveyancers who are granted rights of audience, rights to conduct litigation or an exemption under section 46 are sufficient to secure adequate protection for consumers, and that the advocacy, litigation or (as the case may be) probate services provided by such persons are provided both economically and efficiently.

(6) Where the Council exercises any of its powers in connection with—

  1. (a) an application under section 27 for authorisation or an application under Schedule 8 for approval; or
  2. (b) the granting of any right of audience or right to conduct litigation or of an exemption under section46,

it shall do so subject to any requirements to which it is subject in accordance with the provisions of this Act relating to the grant of any such right or exemption.

(7) Schedule (Licensed conveyancers) makes further provision in connection with the powers given to the Council by this section and the provision made by the Act of 1985 in relation to licensed conveyancers, including amendments of Part II of that Act.

(8) The Lord Chancellor may by order make such—

  1. (a) amendments of, or modifications to, the provisions of Part II of the Act of 1985; or
  2. (b) transitional or consequential provision,

as he considers necessary or expedient in connection with the provision made by this section and Schedule (Licensed conveyancers).

(9) Subject to any provision made by this section, Schedule (Licensed conveyancers) or any order made by the Lord Chancellor under subsection (8), the provisions of Part II of the Act of 1985 shall, with the necessary modifications, apply with respect to—

  1. (a) any application for an advocacy, litigation or probate licence;
  2. (b) any such licence;
  3. (c) the practice of any licensed conveyancer which is carried on by virtue of any such licence;
  4. (d) rules made by the Council under Schedule (Licensed conveyancers);
  5. (e) the management and control by licensed conveyancers (or by licensed conveyancers together with persons who are not licensed conveyancers) of bodies corporate carrying on businesses which include the provision of advocacy, litigation or probate services; and
  6. (f) any other matter dealt with by this section or Schedule (Licensed conveyancers),

as they apply with respect to the corresponding matters dealt with by Part II of that Act.'.—[The Solicitor-General.]

Brought up, and read the First time.]

The Solicitor-General

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this we shall discuss Government amendments Nos. 11, 72, 75, 80 and 81.

The Solicitor-General

The amendments, although necessarily bulky—I apologise to the House that they are bulky, but they will be recognised by members of the Committee as following our previous discussions—are straightforward in their main purpose, which is to extend the powers of the Council for Licensed Conveyancers so that it will have the opportunity to apply, under the framework in part II of the Bill, for approval to license conveyancers to undertake probate work, and authorisation to grant them rights of audience and rights to conduct litigation.

The council is a statutory body, established under the Administration of Justice Act 1985 to grant licences and regulate practitioners solely for the provision of conveyancing services. It therefore has no power to license its members to do other work.

Under clause 27 of the Bill, however, professional or other bodies will be able to apply for authorisation to grant their members rights of audience and rights to conduct litigation. Under clause 46, bodies may be approved by the Lord Chancellor to grant their members exemptions from the provisions of section 23(1) of the Solicitors Act 1974, thus enabling them to undertake probate work.

The Council for Licensed Conveyancers has already shown its interest in seeking such authorisation and approval. Furthermore, in the Green and White Papers that preceded the Bill, the Government made it clear that they intended that licensed conveyancers should be able to offer probate services.

It is therefore necessary to amend the Administration of Justice Act 1985 to enable the council to pursue applications for authorisation or approval under those provisions, and the new clause 14 and first part of the new schedule provide for that.

The procedures required in the event of a successful application are set out in detail to be consistent with the framing of the original legislation. The amendments will not in themselves, however—this should be understood—give the council the power to grant any further rights or exemptions. They will simply place it on the same footing as other bodies able to seek authorisation in due course.

Part II of the schedule extends the council's more detailed powers to enable it to operate and to regulate its members more efficiently and effectively, and to improve the position of the consumer client. They include increased powers to delegate functions to committees of the council, and to intervene in the practice of a licensed conveyancer; revised powers to deal with cases in which the professional services provided are inadequate, including a new power to award compensation of up to £1,000 in such cases and adopt for licensed conveyancers the powers in relation to solicitors that were added to the Bill in Committee in this House; and finally, additional powers to require licensed conveyancers to account for deposit interest on money held for clients, and powers to endorse or attach conditions to licences.

Amendments Nos. 72, 78, 80 and 81 concern necessary minor consequential and transitional changes, and repeals.

The amendments will enable the new profession of licensed conveyancers to seek to develop other new areas of business in the provision of legal services, to the benefit, we hope, of the profession and the consumer, and to make further changes to increase consumer protection.

Mr. Fraser

I thank the Solicitor-General for his comments. Did the Council of Licensed Conveyancers ask for those powers to obtain rights of audience, did it ask solely in relation to probate work, or did it ask at all? Perhaps the Solicitor-General can confirm that only 200 licensed conveyancers are actually in private practice, At the end of 1993, the Government will have provided £466,000 in subsidy to the licensed conveyancers' body. Is that expenditure to continue? Is it consistent with the Government's rather market-orientated, vigorous financial approach to those matters?

I welcome the hon. Member for Ealing, Acton (Sir G. Young) to the Government Front Bench. It is always good to see Lambeth councillors in the House. One is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is nice to see another on the Government Front Bench. It is only a pity that hon. Members cannot hear him talk.

Mr. Peter Temple-Morris (Leominster)

One need not go through the rather enormous declarations of interest that all those who served on the Standing Committee went through in their traverses between one side of the legal profession and the other. Although I do not intend to do that, it will shorten matters if I inform the House—most hon. Members are aware of this—that I shall be speaking on behalf of the Law Society, as I did in Committee. Although my personal thoughts may penetrate my arguments, it will be much easier if everyone presumes, unless I say otherwise, that the views that I am giving are those of the Law Society.

The hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Fraser) has more or less made the points that I wanted to make. However, may I underline one of them, which I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend will deal with in his answer. The Law Society's solicitors' branch believes that this is an entirely proper new clause. The creation of licensed conveyancers to compete with solicitors is fair enough, but if they continued to receive public subsidy, that would not be totally satisfactory; indeed, it would be unsatisfactory.

7 pm

Mr. Austin Mitchell

I rise only to sound a note of dissent from the tendency to praise with faint damns. I welcome the new clause and the expenditure. We shall achieve a social purpose by breaking the solicitors' monopoly over conveyancing. Therefore, the expenditure to achieve that end is justified. We are creating a new professional. Our creation needs the encouragement and support that he is getting. On that basis, I welcome the new clause.

Sir Hugh Rossi (Hornsey and Wood Green)

I do not know whether I am talking out of turn. I was not a member of the Committee that considered the Bill and I saw the papers only about an hour ago. Therefore, the House will forgive me if I am somewhat confused about the matter.

My right hon. and learned Friend referred to the use of authorised conveyancers in probate cases. This may therefore be an opportune moment to ask him a question about that. Little was said about probate practice when the Bill was discussed in Committee. If authorised conveyancers are to be allowed to do probate work, will provision be made to ensure that reasonable charges are set by them for the work that they undertake? Solicitors' costs are taxed. Solicitors charge far less than banks for their probate services. The general public will not be given the protection that they ought to have unless the Bill contains such a provision. I have been unable to spot one. Is a complaints procedure provided for in the Bill, to which the general public will have access, in respect of the probate services that the new profession will be allowed to provide?

The Solicitor-General

This new profession will supplement the great solicitors' profession which has existed for hundreds of years. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) has left the Chamber. To some extent, he can claim to be the midwife of the new profession, and to some extent the midwife's fees have been paid in the form of the £466,000 that was mentioned. I take the figure from the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Fraser). I do not have it in front of me. However, that will be pump-priming money to enable this professional body to get off the ground.

There are about 700 licensed conveyancers. The hon. Member for Norwood was right when he said that only about 200 of them are in independent private practice. Most of the others are employed by solicitors. A good many of them are legal executives, and some of them are quite distinguished. That is a sound basis for a new profession.

I shall seek to find the answer to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Sir H. Rossi) about the taxation of costs. The Bill will create a framework within which the Council for Licensed Conveyancers will be able to provide protection to the public of the kind that the Law Society seeks to provide for the public in relation to solicitors. I do not suggest that that protection is as sophisticated and advanced as that which has been developed by the Law Society over a long period. That, however, is the objective, and that is why the Government have primed the pump.

Mr. Vaz

Do the Government intend to continue to provide money for the council? Do they intend to get some of it back? Is the council to be self-financing in the way that the Authorised Conveyancing Practitioners Board is to be self-financing?

The Solicitor-General

There is both a similarity and a distinction. We do not intend to seek to get back the pump-priming money. That is where there is a distinction, compared with the Authorised Conveyancing Practitioners Board. The board figure is £900,000. That is the figure that the hon. Gentleman and I discussed in Committee. I intended to write to him, and I apologise for the fact that I did so only today, with more details of the make-up of that sum. It is intended that some of the start-up money for the Authorised Conveyancing Practitioners Board should be recouped. The purpose of the money resolution is that the necessary financial structure should be capable of being put in place.

Mr. Vaz

Is it right that the latest grant of £130,000 for the next three years will be the last grant that the Government intend to give to the Council for Licensed Conveyancers?

The Solicitor-General

I do not know the answer to that question. However, several hon. Members have asked whether the council is to become self-supporting. That is most certainly the Government's intention. I shall seek to find out whether a decision has been reached on whether that is to be the last pump-priming figure.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause read a Second Time, and added to the Bill.

Forward to