HC Deb 20 July 1990 vol 176 cc1358-66

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Wood.]

Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark and Bermondsey)

I am grateful—

Mr. Ken Livingstone (Brent, East)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman is now cutting into the time for the Adjournment debate. I am sure that he does not want to do that.

Mr. Hughes

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I hope that we can be encouraged by the prospect that we might get further with this subject than we did with the ones set down for consideration earlier.

I am pleased to have secured at last an opportunity to debate the needs of the Bangladeshi community in Britain. I say that because, like other hon. Members, I have got this opportunity by lottery and one can apply often without success.

Mr. Jeremy Hanley (Richmond and Barnes)

Could not the hon. Gentleman have persuaded his party to take one of the Supply Days that it is allocated to debate this matter?

Mr. Hughes

That is true. Had we more than about two days a year, we might have been able to find some time, but we have little time. My party has discussed the possibility of debating the matter, but the Government and the Labour party have far more opportunities than we do and have never used them to debate this subject.

Specifically, we could have debated this subject at any time since December 1986. I say that conscious that much of the work done by Committees does not get debated in the Chamber. But the Home Affairs Select Committee reported nearly four years ago on Bangladeshis in Britain. It investigated the Bangladeshi community, reported and made a series of recommendations because it believed, and this belief was confirmed by its report, that the Bangladeshi community is "considerably the most disadvantaged" of Britain's minority ethnic communities.

For example, the Committee found that Bangladeshis live in some of the worst accommodation of any community, and that 78 per cent. of 15-year-old Bengali speakers are not fluent in English. The Committee called that an "educational and social disaster". It also found that many Bangladeshis are unskilled and that the percentage of unskilled workers among Bangladeshis is much higher than in any other group and that many Bangladeshi women have a high incidence of depressive illnesses. It concluded that it is even unclear how many Bangladeshis live here.

Those concerns have led me to introduce this debate, so that we can consider the range of social provisions that we afford—or, sadly, too often do not afford—to people who come from Bangladesh to make their home here with us. They come from a country that is one of the most disadvantaged in the world in its own right, because of its geography and because it lacks natural resources.

The Government responded to the Select Committee report in July 1987. There was then a follow-up check by the Home Affairs Select Committee. I now challenge the Government on what has been done about the recommendations of the Select Committee.

For me, and I am sure that I speak for other hon. Members, the Bangladeshi community is a welcome addition to the complexity of our society. The figures are unclear, but there are over 100,000, and perhaps approaching 150,000, of them. They are to be found mainly in a few cities and towns and there are more in Tower Hamlets than anywhere else. I therefore particularly welcome to our debate the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore), who is a former Secretary of State for the Environment and has shown a career-long concern in this community for which we are grateful.

Other large towns and cities have large numbers of Bangladeshis, too—Birmingham, Luton, Oldham, Bradford and, in London, Camden and my borough of Southwark. I know from my dealings with those in my community and elsewhere that they are a committed, industrious and persuasive people in terms of what they want to contribute. I had that confirmed by the privilege that I had last year of visiting Bangladesh for the first time. I was lucky to go with three of my Liberal Democrat colleagues from Southwark—Councillor Anna McGettigan, Martin Downs and Paul Hobbs. We went for almost a fortnight and had a fascinating and informative time. I had always taken the view that I could not properly represent Bangladeshi and Bengali-speaking people without visiting the country from where they came, and I am very glad to have done that.

Unfortunately, there is little time available, so I shall highlight the matters of greatest concern. I begin with housing. The Select Committee rightly drew attention to housing issues which are still the most immediate concern. The dual problem is overcrowding, coupled in many instances with the fact that the housing stock is poor. Homelessness has affected Bangladeshis more than any other ethnic group in the community. The report says that 67 per cent. of Bangladeshi households contains five or more members, compared with the national average of 10 per cent. There is no doubt that there is a tradition of difficulty in obtaining equal treatment. The Commission for Racial Equality and many local authorities have accepted that there is often an inherent disadvantage in the meeting of Bangladeshi housing needs because of the nature of the stock and because of the way the people are dealt with as a result of the lack of linguistic ability to put the case as well as others might. I shall single out one action that we must take to meet those needs. We must ensure that the test of the amount of housing that we provide is that which meets the needs of the people, not just the demands of the market economy. Above all, in the allocations of housing funds or approvals from the Department of the Environment budget, whether directly to and through local authorities or via the Housing Corporation, we must specifically provide more housing for larger families. Without that, Bangladeshi families will often remain grossly overcrowded or he unable to stay together. This week the Prime Minister made a key speech on the family. It is no good talking about rights of maintenance and divorce if social policy does not allow the families who wish to stay together to do so.

Education lies at the heart of many of the needs and problems currently affecting the Bangladeshi community—not just the young, but the middle-aged and older generations. As I said, the report shows that five years ago, 78 per cent. of 15-year-olds were not fluent in English. Another report, published by the Inner London education authority in its last days, showed the poor educational performance of Bangladeshi youngsters compared with those from other ethnic minorities. For example, Indian families, who have often come from East Africa, attain much better results. The problem has been exacerbated because the areas in which there are many Bangladeshi youngsters at school have been among those with the greatest teacher shortage.

There are certain actions that we could take to help. There should be more mother tongue teaching for the very young. All the evidence is that cognitive functions are improved if that is provided at an early age. Last year, I argued in Committee that rather than having only European languages as first choice foreign languages in the national curriculum, non-European languages should also be available as first choice languages. We need more English as a second language teaching provision for all ages. In particular, we must ensure that we meet the educational needs of the older communities, especially those who otherwise would be handicapped or housebound because of their lack of skill in English.

Of course, all this is directly related to employment problems. About 62 to 65 per cent. of the Bangladeshi community who wish to work are unskilled, compared with 16 per cent. of the white community. That leads to disadvantage. We know that of all the ethnic groups, the Bangladeshis earn least. That is partly because of language and discrimination problems, because they do not have sufficient knowledge of the way the system works. It is all cumulative. We could alleviate the housing problems fairly quickly, but educational disadvantage causes a much longer-term problem. I want the Minister and other Departments to address several linked issues. Most people wanting to set up a small business in Tower Hamlets or Southwark, for example, must compete against a big developer and will be confronted by high land costs. Unless we as a society intervene to help, that will be impossible to overcome. Accommodation must be made available as well as skills provision.

Social services departments have a supportive role to play. Soon, there will be many elderly Bangladeshis to care for. We have an elderly population as a whole, and we are adapting our social provision accordingly, to allow them to participate in society. As an example, I can say that it took years to arrange in Southwark the handover of land for a community centre where, for example, women past working age can meet others who share their interests and aspirations. Only this week, I attended the opening of a Turkish centre in my borough which clearly offers a great advantage to that section of the community. We must do the same for Bangladeshis.

A sense of alienation and isolation gives rise to illness, particularly depressive conditions. We must ensure that people do not feel alienated from the health service and that they can find at the hospital or doctor's surgery someone to whom they can talk. This year, the London hospital introduced a language line so that members of the ethnic communities can communicate in their first language. That sort of practical help counteracts the feeling that barriers are being erected.

A high proportion of the Bangladeshi community are women. Women have enough problems in society anyway, but those from the ethnic minorities have particular difficulties. That is even more true of women from the black or Asian communities. They often carry the burden of an overcrowded home, a lack of suitable skills to allow them to join the work force, and language difficulties. Earlier this week, I mentioned to the Minister that I am encouraged to believe that the lessons learnt from our Overseas Development Administration in Bangladesh are being considered for translation into the development of policy in Britain. However, I should like to know what are the initiatives regarding women proposed by the committee that the Minister chairs, and what are the plans for increasing the opportunities available to women from Bangladeshi communities.

Bangladeshi young people represent our future as much as do white young people. They have an enormous contribution to make to the arts, sport, the academic world, and practical employment, yet often we write them off. That is not done intentionally but because there is insufficient provision to ensure that they succeed. Certain features of Government policy are intended to help. For example, there is a provision known to those in the trade as section 11 grants, made specifically to deal with the needs of the ethnic minority communities. However, I was disappointed to learn from a parliamentary answer that this year section 11 grants look likely to be reduced, for the first time, from £115 million to £110 million.

Mr. Hanley

That provision is not cash limited.

Mr. Hughes

Perhaps not, but it is not enough to say that such a reduction is justifiable, even if there are many other demands. I am not asking for something that is incapable of being answered, or suggesting that money is not being made available in other forms, but the Government's key mechanism for helping such people must not be cut.

Britain is coming to terms with the Bangladeshi community, as it has with others in the past. I recognise that some action has been taken. For example, the Home Office has entered into a commitment to reduce the height and chest measurement requirements for recruits entering the police and there are many agencies now serving that community. But I do not see sufficient changes to ensure no discrimination against Bangladeshis who are already in this country, let alone those who have still to arrive here.

I could have dealt with immigration or the problems of racial harassment and racial attacks because they are also important. However, I have concentrated on the general point so that Parliament has a springboard from which to jump to pressurise those in power to take more steps more quickly and to ensure that we do not ignore a community which, because of its economic and social status, currently depends more on others for help. I hope that after today's debate there will be increased awareness of our obligation to ensure that all these people, as part of our community, have the opportunities that we would wish for ourselves.

2.55 pm
Mr. Peter Shore (Bethnal Green and Stepney)

I congratulate the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) on his successful initiative in bringing the important subject of the Bangladeshi community in the United Kingdom to the Floor of the House. I have the honour to represent the constituency of Bethnal Green and Stepney, which contains a substantial number of Bengali settlers. I am as conscious as anyone of the great problems that they face.

However, I do not think that the story is one of unrelieved gloom. When one looks at the enormous number of people who come from the entirely different environment of Sylhet in Bangladesh to live in the east end of London, the enormous adjustments that both they and the settled host community have made in accommodating each other reflect creditably upon all concerned. It is admirable to see people of Bengali origin occupy some of the seats on the local council as properly elected members. We all wish to see greater integration of the community in the future.

I want to deal with three important points. First, as the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey said, racial harassment is a major problem. There are more racial incidents and more violence due to racial causes in the borough of Tower Hamlets than anywhere else in England with the possible exception of Newham. That requires an energetic police presence as well as a continued stream of advice, warning and encouragement from everyone in public life so that there is a proper appreciation of the difficulties of both communities and so that the racial tension underlying attacks can be reduced.

ducation is the second great problem. I have been to see the Minister and raised on the Floor of the House at least three times in the past 12 months the appalling problem of the 300 to 400 children of school age who are not receiving any education, let alone making up for the special difficulties and problems that a recent immigrant community is bound to face in the education system and with the English language. That problem must be dealt with. I urge the Minister to agree to the proposition that a timetable should be laid down for when we can expect every child in the Bangladeshi community and in Tower Hamlets to have the same right to education provision that is guaranteed to all our citizens.

Thirdly, our housing problem is appalling. It is difficult to describe and I shall not even attempt to do so. It is Dickensian. It is overcrowded and there are many homeless people, particularly Bangladeshi families. The housing stock in Tower Hamlets is in a pretty bad state of repair. The Select Committee report, which underlies much of what we have said in the debate, said about the effect of housing on race relations: It is hard to imagine anything more damaging to racial harmony in Tower Hamlets than competition between different communities for increasingly scarce housing. It is not adequate for the Government to deplore racial hatred but to accept no responsibility in respect of situations which forment it. For these reasons, we recommend that Tower Hamlets' HIP allocation be significantly increased, to at least the extend needed to prevent further deterioration in housing conditions in the borough. I regret that that recommendation has been ignored. The housing investment programme for Tower Hamlets in the past two years is just under 34 per cent. of what it was 10 years ago. That is a problem that Ministers can address urgently and I hope very much that the Minister will urge it on his colleagues.

2.59 pm
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. John Patten)

It is always a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore), who has an unparalleled reputation for personal integrity both inside and outside the House and I know that he looks after the interests of his Bangladeshi constituents as carefully as he can and never plays politics with the race issue. In that regard, I listened with care to the moderate and moderately phrased way in which the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) spoke to the House. I found his tone characteristic of the way in which he normally speaks, but surprising when compared to a press release that he issued on Monday, in which he gave an entirely different account and flavour of what he would say this afternoon.

The press notice issued by the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey was more political and, alarmingly, was inaccurate and might cause some distress to the Chair. I shall place a copy of the document in the Library so that hon. Members may read it. The press release states that the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey is to force a Commons debate on 'The needs of the Bangladeshi communities in Britain.?? I had always thought that Adjournment debates are raised somewhat differently and are not forced upon the Chair. I have heard about muscular Christianity, but muscular liberalism is a contradiction in terms. The idea that the Liberal party could force anything on anyone, inside or outside the House, is ludicrous. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take the earliest opportunity to write to Mr. Speaker and apologise for his doubtless inadvertent mistake in suggesting to the outside world that he had somehow heroically forced this debate.

I have also indulged in a little textual criticism of the hon. Gentleman's press notice, which was brought to my notice by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond and Barnes (Mr. Hanley) who I am happy to see is in the Chamber now. He has given distinguished service to the Select Committee on Home Affairs and has travelled to Bangladesh on an important fact-finding mission. I believe that he was surprised at the tone of the speech made by the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey and his references to the Home Affairs Select Committee report and the Government's attitude to it. My feeling of unease was reinforced when I opened my mail and discovered a letter from the Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, North (Sir J. Wheeler), who cannot be present today.

My hon. Friend the Member for Westminster, North is a most distinguished Chairman of a distinguished Committee and he has given me his authority to quote his letter. I shall place a copy of my hon. Friend's letter in the Library. In his letter, my hon. Friend refers to the press notice and then states: I am afraid this"— and "this" refers to the press notice— does not reflect the truth and the most generous interpretation I can place upon these remarks is that Mr. Hughes is not familiar with the work done. My hon. Friend draws my attention in his letter to various reports from the Home Affairs Select Committee and states: In each of these reports, my Committee dealt in detail with the needs of the Bangladeshi community, and following the publication of these reports, the Home Office replied setting out in detail what was being done and the achievements made. In particular, I would draw attention to"— and he then refers to several responses from the Home Office and continues: as well as statements made by ACPO and the Metropolitan Police Commissioner. I am concerned that the interests of race relations may be harmed by selected statements which do not represent the truth concerning these issues. It is important that the House and in particular the Bangladeshi community is made aware as widely as possible of the views of the Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee.

I want now to consider the welfare of the Bangladeshi community, which I have got to know quite well over the past three years particularly, interestingly enough, in Tower Hamlets—the constituency of the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney. He knows that I have made a number of visits there recently.

Any member of the Bangladeshi community would resent the implication that Bangladeshis are making no contribution to British life. I was delighted to hear the right hon. Gentleman refer to the considerable contribution that that community is making to British life and to local government, and to the fact that Bangladeshis do not simply present a problem that needs to be solved. When taking about delicate issues, it is important that we balance the problems—and the right hon. Gentleman certainly pointed out some problems—against the successes and contributions of the Bangladeshi community. I pay due tribute to their successes.

The Government accept that, despite its capacity for self-help, to which I have just referred, and some individual successes, the Bangladeshi community is among the more disadvantaged of the ethnic minority communities in this country. I, personally accept that also. The Bangladeshi community suffers especially in those areas where the Bangladeshi population is relatively small, sometimes located next to members of other Asian groups. We must all make a substantial effort to recognise that the needs of Bangladeshis in this country may be different from the needs of other Asian groups. They must be differentiated.

In defence of the problems that the Bangladeshi people face, they would be the first to recognise that they are among the newest arrivals to this country. Young groups of Bangladeshi men and women—and especially young women—who have arrived here as recently as 18 months ago, have been to see me at the Home Office to talk about the problems that they face. They recognise that it will take some time for them to establish themselves in the mainstream of British life. Family reunions mean that there has been a fairly regular flow of people needing time to adjust to this country, its culture and language.

If one looks to the success of slightly older-established Asian minority communities to see how they have managed to enter the mainstream of British life, that makes me full of hope for the future of the Bangladeshi communities, notwithstanding the problems of Tower Hamlets, and Southwark and Bermondsey. Their achievements have been widespread—in the professions and in business. I wish that the Hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey had mentioned the contribution made by the Bangladeshi community.

Mr. Hanley

Will my right hon. Friend also confirm that as a result of the report of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, the Metropolitan police are considering relaxing the height restrictions for entry to the police, so that the Bangali community can play a full part of the policing of London?

Mr. Patten

Yes, the Metropolitan police and police forces in other parts of the country wish to have as many recruits as possible from the Bangladeshi communities, as soon as possible. I am a great believer in community policing and in communities policing themselves, although not totally. Obviously, having more people from the Bangladeshi communities in our police forces can only help.

I want to see the Bangladeshi communities being able similarly to contribute to many other parts of British life. We hear quite a bit about Islam these days, and the Islamic values of many Bangladeshis, such as the commitment to family life and the belief in hard work and enterprise, correspond closely to some core elements of British society. I am sure that hon. Members of all parties would agree with that.

I refer now to some points in detail. I was asked why the findings of the Select Committee on Home Affairs have not been debated on the Floor of the House. We sit long and hard—longer than any other legislature anywhere else in the world, as you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, will doubtless reflect from time to time late at night. It would be impracticable for the Government automatically to initiate debates on every Select Committee report that is produced. However, the Government published a comprehensive reply to the report in July 1987, and an update was published in 1988. Copies have been placed in the Library.

I was also asked about how many fellow Bangladeshi-British citizens we have. The current estimate, which is based on the 1986–88 surveys, is of a Bangladeshi population of about 108,000. For those who are statistically minded, that is about 0.2 per cent. of the total population of the United Kingdom. The 1991 census will solve the problem because it will contain a question that asks people to classify themselves, if they so wish, as Bangladeshis.

Housing is another important issue. I certainly do not think that all Bangaldeshis live in the worst housing in the country, but I acknowledge the considerable problems in inner London boroughs where the Asian community has chosen to live and where there are large concentrations of Bangladeshi families. The Department of the Environment, and my right hon. Friend—and namesake—the Secretary of State for the Environment, looks to the housing authorities to identify housing measures that will help Bangladeshis and other ethnic minorities and asks them to include provision to address such problems in their bids to the Department.

I fear that time is probably about to run out, Mr. Deputy Speaker, so I seek the permission of the House to write to the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey and so deal with all the points that I have been unable to cover in the debate.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at nine minutes past Three o'clock.