§ Dr. John Cunningham (Copeland)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask you to reflect on your decision in respect of the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell), who sought to raise the responsibility of the Prime Minister as head of the Conservative party? As the Prime Minister deliberately includes the chairman of the Conservative party, the right hon. Member for Mole Valley (Mr. Baker), in the Cabinet, she clearly has, as Prime Minister, responsibility for his activities and his conduct of those matters. As those responsibilities cover what has happened to the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer), should not questions to the Prime Minister about such matters be in order?
§ Mr. SpeakerThe whole House knows the rules about this, and they remain the same for both sides of the House. The Prime Minister must be asked questions within her prime ministerial responsibility, in just the same way as I disallow questions about the Leader of the Opposition's responsibilities for the Labour party. The same rules apply to both sides of the House.
§ Dr. Cunninghamrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not going to challenge that.
§ Dr. CunninghamNo, Mr. Speaker. I shall certainly not challenge what you said. I wish to be absolutely clear that in future, if Conservative Members raise matters with the Prime Minister or other Ministers about the Labour party—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ah!"]—you will rule them out of order before there is any reply from the Dispatch Box.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman's memory must be at fault; that has always been my practice.
§ Mr. Bill Walker (Tayside, North)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will be aware that the Act of Union requires that taxes in the United Kingdom must be the same in Scotland and in England. It would therefore be improper and constitutionally flawed to introduce a tax in Scotland that was different from a tax in England. I use the word "tax" carefully. I am not talking about the community charge; I am talking about tax. As that is so, would it be improper to use Scotland as a guinea pig for a new tax? If it would be, why is the Labour party proceeding down that road?
§ Mr. SpeakerBy the wildest stretch of the imagination that is nothing to do with order in the Chamber. I now call the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) for his daily point of order.
§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. During the exchanges at Prime Minister's Question Time, you did not seem to be able to call the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer). We understand that sometimes it may be difficult for hon. Members to catch your eye, but as he was mentioned in dispatches, can you do something about this on Thursday?
§ Mr. SpeakerI am sure that the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer) will be very grateful for that intervention. I will reflect on it.
§ Mr. Richard Holt (Langbaurgh)The selection of hon. Members to speak in debates, at Question Time or at other times, is very privileged. It seems to me, to many of my hon. Friends and to many outside the House that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) gets more than his fair share—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I hope that that is not a reflection on the Chair. I must point out to the hon. Gentleman that the hon. Member for Bolsover is a very regular attender—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman must not rise while I am on my feet. The hon. Gentleman knows that the hon. Member for Bolsover is a regular attender in the Chamber, especially at Question Time and in our debates.
§ Mr. SpeakerWhat else is there?.
§ Mr. HoltIt is true that the hon. Member for Bolsover is a regular and assiduous Member of the House, and no one would seek to deny that. However, there are Conservative Members who are equally assiduous—and I am one of them. I sit here day after day, seeing favours being given to the hon. Member for Bolsover. From the way in which he is reported nationally, it is clear that he enjoys advantages that are not available to any other hon. Member.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. If the hon. Gentleman believes that he is deprived in any way, I must remind him that no hon. Member can expect to be called much more than about four times a year; it is a question of the arithmetic. In the previous Session, the hon. Gentleman was called no fewer than nine times.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I am not prepared to take further points on that. I call the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer).
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Please will the hon. Gentleman resume his seat? I am not prepared to bandy arguments from the Chair with him.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. It is not a point of order. I know that the hon. Gentleman is upset, but will he please restrain himself?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I am deeply reluctant to take further action—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman must contain himself. I am very reluctant to have to take further action. I ask the hon. Gentleman's hon. Friends to prevail on him.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. If the hon. Gentleman rises once more, I would be very reluctant to take action which the whole House would regret. I am not prepared to hear a further point of order from him on this matter.
§ Mr. HefferOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have raised this point of order on other occasions and I would like to raise it again [Interruption.] Will you be quiet for a minute? [Interruption.] I am trying to raise a point of order. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Let me hear what the hon. Gentleman has to say.
§ Mr. HefferI am trying to raise a point of order, Mr. Speaker, and it would be a good idea, if from time to time—and this is the very point that I am raising—the House could behave itself. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Let us hear what the hon. Gentleman has to say.
§ Mr. HefferI have noticed in the past year or two that when hon. Members, particularly on the Opposition side of the House, raise matters which hon. Members on the Government side do not like they immediately begin to shout. I have suggested to you before, Mr. Speaker, that it is the responsibility and the duty of Mr. Speaker and of all of us who believe in democracy to explain to hon. Members, particularly those on the Government Benches, that we are not in the Reichstag—[HoN. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—and we are not in the old Soviet when Mr. Brezhnev was there. Is it not time—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Let me hear what the hon. Gentleman has to say. He is the Back Bencher of the year.
§ Mr. HefferHon. Members, or certain of them, no longer listen to an argument. They think that the way to deal with an argument is to shout people down. It is about time that they were taught that we are a democracy and that we must continue to be a democracy. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Do not let us have a debate on this. The whole House agrees that we listen to each other's arguments here with respect. Very often we hear uncomfortable things or things with which we do not agree, but we listen to them with respect.
§ Mr. SpeakerIf it is on a totally different matter, I will take Mr. Burns.
§ Mr. Simon Burns (Chelmsford)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I please ask your advice on a very serious matter and seek your guidance on whether the issue that I wish to raise with you should be referred to a Committee of the House to consider?
As you are aware, Mr. Speaker, there is an organisation, which purports to be non-party political, called Hospital Alert. It is funded partly by Labour-controlled Hounslow council and partly by the SLD-controlled Richmond and Twickenham council.
Last Thursday night, when I returned to the House befor the vote at 10 o'clock, I found a House of Commons paid envelope on the Members' message board in the Members' Lobby which had come by the Members' internal postal service. Inside the envelope, which contained no identification of the sender, were a number of forms that Hospital Alert is using throughout the country; 744 it gets constituents to sign them and then send them to their Members of Parliament for a reply, or whatever hon. Members wish to do. These were all put together. The senders were then using House of Commons envelopes and the House of Commons internal postal system, at the taxpayers' expense, to distribute them.
This is a matter that should be looked into. A stop should be put to it, as the organisers plan to have throughout February a national campaign to lobby hon. Members. I hope that it will not be done through the House of Commons postal service.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe whole House knows the regulations about the use—
§ Mr. Dave Nellist (Coventry, South-East)Further to that point of order. Mr. Speaker—
§ Mr. SpeakerNo, there can be no argument about this. The whole House knows that it is not in order to use House of Commons envelopes for circulars. If that is what the hon. Gentleman alleges, the matter should be reported to the Services Committee, which will deal with it.
§ Mr. NellistOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. If on reflection you take the wider action suggested by the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) in his allegation, will you include the use by private companies of the banqueting facilities in the basement to lobby Members of Parliament and have influence on this place? I and many people outside think that that is a far worse crime than the one alleged.
§ Mr. SpeakerThat is also a matter for the Services Committee.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. We are to have a very important debate today on the Chancellor's Autumn Statement. A great many hon. Members wish to participate. It will take time out of the debate if we have further points of order now, particularly if they are points of order that are not matters for the Chair. If there is anything that is genuinely a matter for the Chair, I shall endeavour to deal with it.
§ Mr. Andrew Welsh (Angus, East)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Chair is responsible for the use of language in this House. Earlier the whole House heard the Prime Minister refer to Scotland as a region. Scotland is not a region but a nation. The insult will be noted in Scotland. What influence can you exert on the Prime Minister to get her to use the correct terminology?
§ Mr. SpeakerI am not responsible for the answers that are given.
§ Mr. Kenneth Hind (Lancashire, West)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We on the Conservative Benches support the Chair, as well you know, no matter from which side the current Speaker comes. Unfortunately, during your term of office you have had to ask hon. Members to leave the Chamber and you have had to preside over their dismissal. Can you confirm that you have never had to order the removal of a Conservative Member from the House or to ask a Conservative Member to leave?
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman does not need to ask questions like that. He knows the answer perfectly well.
§ Mr. Dick Douglas (Dunfermline, West)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would you care to reflect on the reply that you gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) about the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell)? We have a developing constitution. While theoretically the office of Prime Minister is bestowed by the monarch, in practice there is an electoral process; therefore, the Prime Minister is the choice of the governing party. Perhaps I am reading too much into your answer, but surely you are not saying that the electoral process whereby that comes about is not subject to proper questioning in the House.
§ Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South)Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerIs it the same point of order?
§ Mr. CryerYes, Mr. Speaker. There is a difference. A point was raised about Conservative party organisation. We have heard that that, of course, is not a matter for the Prime Minister. But the chairman of the Conservative party is appointed by the Prime Minister and holds an office paid by the taxpayer. That is not the case with the Labour party. The Labour party chairman is elected and has no place in a Labour Government, nor any position necessarily within Parliament. So the two positions are different—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman is giving an explanation. The question that was asked by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell) was not about the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster; it was about an individual Member, the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer). That was why I ruled the question out of order, as I would have ruled out, and have frequently done, as the whole House knows, questions touching upon the responsibilities of the Leader of the Opposition as leader of his party.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Further points of order will take a great deal of time out of the debate. I am bound to have regard for hon. Members who wish to participate in the debate rather than at this time.
§ Sir Hal Miller (Bromsgrove)Further to the last point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I remind those who have forgotten that Conservative associations are independent of the Conservative party organisation and make their own decisions?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. That should be raised as a private Member's motion on party organisation.
§ Mr. SpeakerNo. I have to have regard for the subsequent business. We are under heavy pressure.