HC Deb 15 January 1990 vol 165 cc15-6
53. Mr. Allen

To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission when the Public Accounts Commission last met; and what matters were discussed.

Sir Peter Hordern

The Commission last met on 12 December 1989 when, among other subjects we discussed the Estimates for 1990–91 of the National Audit Office and the Northern Ireland National Audit Office, and the corporate plan for the National Audit Office to 1994–95.

Mr. Allen

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that, last week, statutory instruments relating to the Official Secrets Acts were before the House but were blocked. Hon. Members blocked them because of a condition relating to the National Audit Office, which is that those who work for the office could be described as Crown servants and could therefore fall under the ambit of the Official Secrets Acts. Will the hon. Gentleman reassure the House that National Audit Office staff will be free to continue their work on behalf of the Public Accounts Commission to examine all papers relevant to the pursuit of public money? Will he make those assurances publicly?

Sir Peter Hordern

I assure the hon. Gentleman and the House that the Comptroller and Auditor General and the National Audit Office will be able to pursue their duties, as they have always been able to, under the new legislation affecting the Official Secrets Acts.

Mr. Marlow

Will the Public Accounts Committee look into the massive £2,000 million net contribution that we made last year to the European Community, which I understand is a major—

Mr. Speaker

Order. This question is about the Public Accounts Commission, not the Public Accounts Committee.

Mr. Marlow

Indeed, the Commission is even better than the Committee. Could it look into that matter and see whether we can get more of our money back?

Sir Peter Hordern

I am not sure that the Commission is any better than the Committee. The matter is more properly for the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee than for the Public Accounts Commission.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that it is unacceptable, on an issue where the Public Accounts Commission could make representations, that the Public Accounts Committee is unable to—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The same rules apply. The hon. Gentleman is a member of the Public Accounts Committee, so he should know.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

I am referring specifically to the Commission's relationship to the Committee and the fact that it can make representations to the Committee. The PAC does not have access to information about State expenditure on the security services and GCHQ. That is shown as a single sum in the Vote and we are not allowed in any way to investigate the areas of expenditure covered by those headings. Members of Parliament may want more information, although not wishing to interfere in the operational work of that department.

Sir Peter Hordern

Although that is another interesting question, I fear that it is not one for the Commission, whose remit in these matters is limited.