HC Deb 27 February 1990 vol 168 cc139-44 3.31 pm
Sir Anthony Meyer (Clwyd, North-West)

rose——

Hon. Members

Hear, hear.

Mr. Speaker

Order. Will hon. Members not remaining for the private notice question please leave quietly?

Sir Anthony Meyer

(by private notice): To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make a statement about the flooding in north Wales.

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Walker)

A combination of high tides, severe weather and gales gusting at times to 100 mph has led to flooding and damage on the north Wales coast.

Parts of the Rhyl and Prestatyn areas have been flooded due to the over-topping of the sea defences, and the new Nova centre at Prestatyn has suffered extensive damage. At Ffynnongroyw near Prestatyn, 50 people have been evacuated from their homes. The railway line has been flooded.

At Towyn, the sea wall has been breached and 900 people have been evacuated from their homes. There has been extensive flooding of properties.

At Dinas Dinlle near Caernarfon, 15 people have been evacuated from their homes following an over-topping of the sea walls.

There was a further high tide at 12.15 today, and a forecast of further gale force winds and a storm surge. The reports that I have so far received indicate that there has been further extensive flooding in the same areas.

The emergency services and the local authorities are dealing with the immediate problems. I am sure that all hon. Members will join me in paying tribute to the dedication and hard work of all those involved in safeguarding life and property. My hon. Friend the Minister of State has immediately flown to north Wales and is visiting the areas worst affected.

The Bellwin rules will, of course, apply if the criteria are met.

Sir Anthony Meyer

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that statement and for the prompt and energetic action that he has characteristically taken. Is he aware that what has happened in my constituency and in adjoining constituencies is a disaster of major magnitude, that a great burden is falling on the local rescue services, which have responded magnificently, and that heavy charges will now fall on the local authorities in the provision of temporary accommodation for those who must be moved out—not, it seems, for a day or two but perhaps for several days—and in the clearing up and repair work that remains to be done? Is he satisfied that the Bellwin formula will adequately safeguard the position of the local authorities, bearing in mind the present pressures on local government finance?

Mr. Walker

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. A few moments ago I had a telephone call from my hon. Friend the Minister of State confirming the considerable problems and damage in my hon. Friend's constituency. The Bellwin rules apply if district councils are involved in expenditure of more than—for example, in Delyn—£27,000. My hon. Friend will know that that is virtually certain in the district councils with which he is involved, so there will be substantial grants from the Government. I shall examine carefully any capital expenditure that may be necessary to see whether further quotas will be required.

Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon)

I join the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer) in thanking the emergency services for the tremendous work that they have done in Clwyd and in my county of Gwynedd. Will the Secretary of State give an assurance that local authorities will receive financial assistance to meet any revenue shortfall that may arise as a result of the work that has to be done, and that finance will be made available to the emergency services, such as the ambulance service, which may have suffered? Will the right hon. Gentleman also give an assurance that the sea defence walls along the coast will be reviewed in detail and, if a massive capital expenditure programme is necessary to safeguard the communities, that will be undertaken?

Mr. Walker

On the latter point, the hon. Gentleman knows that there has been large capital expenditure over the years in that area, but if further action is recommended, I shall examine it positively. We shall review the impact of the disaster and see what decisions need to be taken, but the most likely action will be on some capital expenditure programmes and in those areas covered by the Bellwin rules, and we shall ensure that instant decisions are taken.

Mr. Keith Raffan (Delyn)

I, too, pay tribute to all the emergency services and to the local authorities which have acted so promptly. As my right hon. Friend rightly says, the flooding today was worse than yesterday. In the village of Ffynnongroyw it was between 18 in and 2 ft. However, during the rest of the week, we are faced with consistently high tides and, depending on wind and surge, we could have more serious flooding.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his assurance that the Bellwin rules are likely to be applied. Every assistance must be given to the local authorities involved, but will he also get in touch this afternoon with British Rail to ensure that all that can be done will be done to close temporarily the sea wall at Ffynnongroyw? However, in the longer term we obviously need a much more substantial sea wall, as the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) said, and British Rail may well need capital help.

As my right hon. Friend well knows, the coastal protection works at Prestatyn have gone through a major reconstruction in recent years at a cost of nearly £6 million, and local people need reassurance that those works, particularly those that have been newly constructed, remain effective. I know that my right hon. Friend will act promptly, particularly as so many houses in that area have been flooded.

Finally, the Nova complex, which is the main tourist attraction in the town, and on which the local economy depends, has been devastated. Will my right hon. Friend do all that he can to help reconstruction there, and, if possible, when he visits my constituency next Tuesday, will he visit Ffynnongroyw and Prestatyn?

Mr. Walker

I know how concerned my hon. Friend is, and that he has left hospital in order to be here this afternoon. We appreciate the considerable anxiety that he has displayed towards his constituents' problems. We shall carefully examine the lessons to be learnt from the sea wall.

As my hon. Friend says, I shall be visiting his part of north Wales next week, and I shall endeavour to find time to examine some of the problems and to speak to the local authorities involved.

Dr. John Marek (Wrexham)

Will the Secretary of State assure the House that the Bellwin rules will apply to any requests from Clwyd county council with regard to the anthrax outbreak in the earlier part of this financial year and the present flooding? Secondly, has the right hon. Gentleman made representations to the Secretary of State for Social Security to ensure that crisis payments will not be held back by any vagaries of the social fund?

Mr. Walker

The Bellwin rules, which were agreed with local government, will operate according to the rules of local government. There will not be a combining of every incident that takes place. I think that the hon. Gentleman realises that local authorities rightly have contingency funds which they expect to cover some incidents of this description.

Several Hon. Members

rose——

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Harris—on Wales.

Mr. David Harris (St. Ives)

Representing as I do, an area which has been grievously and repeatedly hit by this winter's storms, may I extend my sympathy to the people of north Wales on the disaster that they have suffered? Will my right hon. Friend kindly have a word with the Minister of Agriculture and the Secretary of State for the Environment to try to arrange a comprehensive examination of our sea defences? I assure him that much money will have to be spent on many parts of the coastline, particularly in Cornwall, to try to improve the defences against the sea and storm such as we have experienced repeatedly during this winter.

Mr. Walker

I will certainly convey to my right hon. Friends the views which my hon. Friend has expressed.

Dr. Kim Howells (Pontypridd)

Does the Secretary of State agree that the whole of Wales has been hard hit this year by flooding and other national disasters? Does he accept that it is not enough to refer to local authority contingency funds and that it will take positive action by him, including knocking together the heads of those authorities which need it, to ensure that remedial work is undertaken so that flooding does not affect people in Wales in future?

Mr. Walker

Yes, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we will carefully examine the various problems in different parts of Wales that have occurred as a result of flooding, and that we shall examine and discuss with local authorities what action needs to be taken.

Mr. Nicholas Bennett (Pembroke)

My right hon. Friend will be aware that it is only a few weeks since I asked a similar private notice question, about flooding in my constituency; that question was answered by the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment. Since then, I have been in correspondence with the National Rivers Authority and the district councils. There seems to be confusion and doubt about whose responsibility it is in the long term to deal with the flooding. Can my right hon. Friend assure us that there will be meetings between the National Rivers Authority and district councils, and that an attempt will be made to see whether European money can be made available for the important job of constructing new sea wall defences?

Mr. Walker

I will certainly examine my hon. Friend's suggestion. As a result of the events that have taken place this year, we will have discussions with local authorities, the river authorities and all concerned to see that positive action is taken.

Mr. Eric S. Heifer (Liverpool, Walton)

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those of us who come from Merseyside are deeply concerned about the problems of Clwyd because not only do many of our people go to live there but it is also a great lung for us? We love going to that part of north Wales, because the small towns and the seaside towns give us an opportunity at weekends to get some decent air into our lungs. I hope that the Government will give every possible support to the people in north Wales because, by doing so, they will also be supporting built-up areas like Merseyside.

Mr. Walker

I very much appreciate the hon. Gentleman's remarks. As he rightly says, Merseyside has a close association with north Wales, and always has had. I know that the people of Merseyside are anxious about what has taken place in north Wales, and I welcome the hon. Gentleman's remarks about it.

Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop (Tiverton)

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied with the aspect of the Bellwin rules that has to do with not covering buildings which could have been covered by insurance? May it not be much more prudent for a council to cover damage to buildings out of its contingency fund rather than pay insurance premiums which, in the long run, are designed to make a profit for insurance companies?

Mr. Walker

In fairness to my hon. Friend, there is available to local authorities insurance by an insurance company which has a mutual arrangement with local authorities and is non-profit making. Therefore, to some extent, if local authorities, find the premiums competitive, they have the opportunity to go to a mutual insurance company.

Mr. Charles Kennedy (Ross, Cromarty and Skye)

In a simple spirit of Celtic comradeship, may I congratulate the Secretary of State for Wales on the efforts that he is clearly making? I contrast that with the actions of the Scottish Office and the Secretary of State for Scotland. I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman will have a word in his right hon. and learned Friend's ear. I have raised this matter with the Leader of the House on business questions on the past two Thursdays, because we have now had private notice questions answered by the Department of the Environment in the case of flooding in England, and by the Welsh Office for flooding in Wales. However, more than a month after severe disruption and distress was caused by flooding in various parts of Scotland, we have yet to hear anything orally from the Scottish Office. What is it that the Secretary of State has got that our man lacks?

Mr. Walker

I can only say that I have every admiration for the action that my right hon. and learned Friend takes, and I regard the hon. Gentleman's question as based not on Celtic affection, but on party advantage.

Mr. Ian Bruce (Dorset, South)

rose——

Mr. Speaker:

Mr. Bruce. Is this still about Wales?

Mr. Bruce

Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Will my right hon. Friend accept that I echo everything that my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris) has said? The sea defences throughout Wales, England and Scotland are in poor repair. I particularly emphasise that enormous grants are available from the Welsh Office, the Department of the Environment, the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Department of Transport, county councils and district councils. However, often when people face problems they do not know who is supposed to deal with the matter, or where to get the grant.

I ask my right hon. Friend whether he could urgently discuss with his Cabinet colleagues having a single agency, with a single grant, to undertake this type of work, so that all the confusion is washed away, rather than our constituents being washed away. Certainly the people of Weymouth and Swanage have found in the past few weeks, exactly as the people of north Wales have, that this is not a pleasant experience, and we need to get it sorted out.

Mr. Walker

I think that the Welsh experience is different, because there is one Welsh Office to assess the whole range of functions required. I shall certainly convey to my right hon. Friends my hon. Friend's remarks about the position in England, and about the combination of grants available.

Mr. Barry Jones (Alyn and Deeside)

May I offer 100 per cent. support to the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer), who always guards his constituency in an exemplary fashion? May I also welcome back the hon. Member for Delyn (Mr. Raffan) from hospital? We all appreciate the praise that the right hon. Gentleman has given to the emergency services. He knows that they have been absolutely magnificent.

Does the Secretary of State agree that, with a 200 m breach in the sea wall, with the sewage pumps out of action, with more than 400 m of inland flooding, with a 10 m tide at a quarter past noon today, and with more than 900 people officially evacuated—and I am informed that the water level is still rising—this is a definition of a major disaster, as the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West stated in his original question? Financial aid on a large scale, and a specific commitment this afternoon, are now required.

The Secretary of State should carefully consider the lack of a rail link between Holyhead and Chester. I should like him to tell the House his estimate of when the rail link will be restored, because the island of Anglesey's economy almost totally depends on that link. I am informed that it may be many weeks, and I should like to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that he has considered urgent action to restore the link, and has even considered asking the Army to help.

Will the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that we are looking for a specific commitment of new money in major quantities today to enable north Wales to face up to a major disaster?

Mr. Walker

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the tributes that he paid to my hon. Friends, and to the emergency services, with which I agree. He mentioned the railway. He will be well aware, as a former Minister in the Welsh Office, that if further flooding has taken place at noon today, there is no way that I can at this point estimate the magnitude of the damage and what is required.

I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is a necessity for the economy of Anglesey and other parts of north Wales, for the damage to the railway system to be tackled as speedily as possible. Obviously there will be talks with British Rail and any assistance that we can give, we will give enthusiastically.

As far as the general scene is concerned, which the hon. Gentleman describes as a major emergency, certainly, from all the information that I have and from a recent phone call to the Minister of State, I agree with that assessment. I have no doubt that substantial grants will be available from the Government to virtually all the district councils concerned, because sums will exceed certain limits.

I am very pleased that agreement was reached with the local authorities, and that, in the event of such emergencies, they will now know that the Government will respond speedily. In the past—including the period during which I was Secretary of State for the Environment—Governments of all persuasions engaged in lengthy assessments and deliberations about exactly what was necessary and how the matter should be dealt with. Now help will be automatic, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that the Welsh Office, recognising the importance of north Wales, will play its part in ensuring that speedy remedial action is taken.