Points of Order (Hansard, 21 February 1990)

§ Mr. Bryan Gould (Dagenham)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that, during Environment Question Time, the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, the hon. Member for Southampton, lichen (Mr. Chope), revealed in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Nellist) that he knew that my hon. Friend had registered a second home in Wandsworth on the poll tax register. That raises two important questions: how did the Minister come by that information; and, in the light of possible security implications, was the Minister wise or justified in divulging that information to the House?
On the first question, it is worth bearing in mind that my hon. Friend's Wandsworth address is not published in any public directory; it is simply not on the public record. The only way in which the Minister could have known that the address on the poll tax register was a second home was by having access to information that is specifically excluded from the public register. Practice note No. 6 specifically makes it clear that the register will use the name and initial and the address, but no courtesy titles or Christian or other names and will not indicate the type or amount of community charge or show any other information.
We need to ask the Minister, through you, Mr. Speaker, first to explain how he came by that information. Did he scour the poll tax register, and on what basis did he believe that my hon. Friend had an address in that borough? If that is not the case, was the information drawn to his attention, and, if so, by whom? Were civil servants involved in looking for the information and in drawing it to his attention? How did he know information which was specifically excluded from the public register? How did he know that my hon. Friend has registered a second home when he has not registered a first?
On the second matter——

§ Mr. Speaker
I urge the hon. Member to be brief—[Interruption.] Order. This is a point of order to me, but it does not seem to have anything to do with me.

§ Mr. Gould
I shall proceed to the second matter and I shall deal with it briefly, Mr. Speaker.
We need to know from the Minister what concern he showed for security when he decided to divulge that information to the House. I think that we are all aware that we are under constant instruction from the Serjeant at Arms to be very careful about the way in which we reveal information about our private addresses and movements. I think that the House has been left with the uneasy suspicion that the Minister paid no heed to those considerations, and that he wanted to use the information simply to make a cheap party-political point.
We need to know whether this was an instance of irresponsible free enterprise on the part of a junior Minister, or whether it was part of the responsible consideration of a Minister, taking into account all the factors that I have mentioned. I ask you to rule on the question, Mr. Speaker, and perhaps to persuade the Minister to enlighten the House and to explain his actions.

§ Mr. Speaker
I cannot rule on such matters. I do not think that any of those questions was directed at me.

§ The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Chris Patten)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps I can respond, albeit more briefly. As the House will know—and the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) was entirely right to make this point—there is no public access to the full register. There is, on the other hand, public access to extracts from the register, which give addresses, names and initials of those who have registered, street by street. That information is available for Wandsworth—a borough in which, as the hon. Gentleman will know, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment is well known and widely celebrated.
Secondly, it is open to every hon. Member to apply for confidentiality, just as every citizen may apply. There is a box on the form in which we can place a tick and so apply for it. I understand that the hon. Member for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Nellist) did not do that—[interruption.] In that case, the hon. Gentleman's argument is with the community charge registration officer in Wandsworth. He—[Interruption.]

§ Mr. Speaker
Order.

§ Mr. Patten
Thirdly, my hon. Friend did not give the hon. Gentleman's address. He said that he lived in Wandsworth.
Fourthly, although it is true that my hon. Friend referred to the hon. Gentleman having a second home in Wandsworth, that was not a difficult thing to deduce because the hon. Gentleman said, in his question, that he was subject to the community charge in Coventry, where I understand that his name appears, whether or not with security advice, in the telephone directory. [Interruption.]

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I remind the House that we have a very heavy day ahead of us, and I hope that this will not go on too long.

§ Mr. Patten
I think that the hon. Member for Coventry, South-East is lucky to live in Wandsworth and to be registered there; and instead of being cross about it he should have expressed his gratitude.
Finally, the hon. Member for Dagenham expressed concern about security. Next time that newspapers print details of the community charges paid by Ministers, including the Secretary of State for the Environment, in comparison with the rates, as they have already done, I look forward to the hon. Gentleman making a fuss about security.

Several Hon. Members
rose——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I ask the House to reflect on whether there is any possibility of a point of order on which I can rule. The matter that has been raised is not one for me to consider; the House could deal with it properly by means of a motion. I will hear points of order on any other subject.

§ Mr. Max Madden (Bradford, West)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I ask you to reconsider—and this is a matter for you.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The whole House knows that it is not a matter for me. It relates to the content of an answer to a question about which an explanation has been given. I will hear points of order on a different matter.

§ Mr. Dave Nellist (Coventry, South-East)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. If you will not make a ruling now, may I ask you to consider the matter later today? The central issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) does not concern me; it is reasonably well known that my name is in the Coventry telephone book, and that I live in the area that I represent. The central issue is the fact that the former leader of Wandsworth borough council—now a junior Minister at the Department of the Environment—can come to the Chamber and announce the details of where any hon. Member lives.
You are responsible for order in the Chamber, Mr. Speaker. I think that you should give serious consideration to where the information has come from. Has it come from the Fees Office? Has it come from civil servants at the Department of the Environment? Is it the result of a leak from Wandsworth borough council, in which the Minister still has some associates? Hon. Members should not worry about me: I shall manage. They should think about the principle that is at stake.

§ Mr. Speaker
I do not deny that this is a matter of concern, but it is not a point of order for me. I frequently may not agree personally with what is said at Question Time.

§ Mr. Andrew MacKay (Berkshire, East)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
I trust that it is on a different matter.

§ Mr. MacKay
It is on a different matter, Mr. Speaker—one on which I believe that you can guide us, and with which you can deal directly. Can you confirm that points of order arising from Question Time should not be taken then but should be raised immediately after Question Time?

§ Mr. Speaker
We have been over this ground many times. Let me repeat, in case the hon. Gentleman was not here on those occasions, that if a matter requiring the attention of the Chair is raised at any time, it is dealt with at that time. That may happen during a debate, at Question Time or at any other time. I always take points of order if they require urgent attention, but most do not.

§ Mr. Tony Favell (Stockport)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am afraid that it relates to what was said by the hon. Member for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Nellist). Are you able to give any guidance about his proper course of action? It strikes me as unfair that he should be picked out by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment. Should not my hon. Friend disclose the names of all Opposition Members who are living in Wandsworth? Personally, I thought that they were a bunch of dumbos who did not care what the local authority——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman is clearly trying to continue discussion on the same subject. I will take points of order only on different matters.

§ Mr. Stanley Orme (Salford, East)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I find it extraordinary that the Secretary of State should speak on behalf of the Under-Secretary of State. Surely it would be simplest for the Under-Secretary to go to the Dispatch Box, say that he has made an error, withdraw what he has said about my hon. Friend the 942 Member for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Nellist)—and whatever he may have said about anyone else in this regard—and apologise to the House. The Under-Secretary could clear up the matter in two minutes: I appeal to him to make a statement.

§ Mr. Speaker
Clearly that is not a point of order for me.

Several Hon. Members
rose——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I make it clear that I shall not take any more points of order on that matter. I will take a point of order on a different matter.

§ Mr. David Ashby (Leicestershire, North-West)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will know of my great concern about the Register of Members' Interests and Labour Members. When a Labour Member chooses to——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I said that I would take no further points of order on the earlier matter. I thought that the hon. Gentleman had a point of order on a different subject to draw to my attention.

§ Mr. Ashby
My point of order concerns the Register of Members' Interests, Mr. Speaker. I have been most concerned for some time about Labour Members and the Register of Members' Interests. When an hon. Member chooses to live in the lowest-rated borough in London——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman is cheating. He must not do that.

Several Hon. Members
rose——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I shall only take a point of order on a different matter.

§ Mr. Harry Ewing (Falkirk, East)
On a point of order., Mr. Speaker. My point of order concerns a matter of privilege.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. If it concerns a matter of privilege, the hon. Gentleman must write to me.

§ Mr. Ewing
But I want to raise the matter on a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Is it on a different matter?

§ Mr. Ewing
No, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Then I will not take it.

Several Hon. Members
rose——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I ask hon. Members who are on their feet please to sit down. I will not take any further points of order on the earlier matter.

§ Mr. Jim Marshall (Leicester, South)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I assure you that it concerns an entirely different matter. You will be aware, Mr. Speaker, that a cowardly bomb attack was made on two members of the armed forces in Leicester yesterday afternoon. I am sure that you share with me an immense sense of relief that neither of those individuals, nor any others in the city of Leicester was injured. The incident highlights the continuing bombing campaign by the IRA on the mainland of Britain and the need for continuing vigilance on the part of all members of the public to ensure that such incidents do not occur again.
943 I am concerned, as is my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner), that the Secretary of State for Defence did not think it necessary to come to the House today to make a statement. Have any inquiries been made of you, Mr. Speaker, with a view to facilitating such a statement being made to the House this afternoon?

§ Mr. Speaker
The whole House regrets such incidents, but the question of a statement is not a matter for me.

§ Mr. Ashby
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
No. Earlier the hon. Gentleman—inadvertently, I am sure—misled me. I would rather move on to the next business.