Points of Order (Hansard, 19 February 1990)

§ Mr. Merlyn Rees (Morley and Leeds, South)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker—

§ Mr. Speaker
On this matter?

§ Mr. Rees
The point of order, Mr. Speaker, is on the role of Select Committees, arising out of this matter. We have had a rehearsal by my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) of the facts as revealed in a newspaper, in an article that was withdrawn at the request of the Ministry of Defence—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I understand.
On the precise point about the Select Committee, Mr. Speaker, first, the Government denied that Clockwork Orange existed; then, they said that it was not authorised. Now, General Leng, whom I also respect and with whom I worked, and the General Officer Commanding, Northern Ireland, Frank King, both say that it was authorised, which is another part of the story.
On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Select Committee on Defence is considering the matters of papers and of authorisations. Can General Leng, as a former senior officer in the Army, be called before a Select Committee to give evidence on that point? Can the Government stop him so appearing? If he wishes, can he appear before the Select Committee on this point?

§ Mr. Speaker
It is not for me to give directions to a Select Committee from the Chair. As I understand it, it would be possible for that to happen.

§ Dr. John Cunningham (Copeland)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not astonishing and unsatisfactory that, at the very time when the former President of the United States of America is being required to give evidence in respect of the examination by Congress of Admiral Poindexter on all those matters, it is proving impossible in the British House of Commons for the legislature to exert any effective scrutiny over these matters? It is grossly unsatisfactory that the activities of the Select Committees of this House are being circumscribed by Ministers in this regard.
In view of the latest statement by the highest-ranking officers in the armed forces that these matters of disinformation and smear were properly authorised, surely there is now an overwhelming argument for the House to have a proper examination of all the material interests in these matters.
It seems that only with some co-operation from the Leader of the House and the Government are we ever likely to get to the bottom and to the truth of these matters. Therefore, I appeal to the Leader of the House to join me in discussions through the usual channels to find a way in which we in the House and the public can find the truth of the matter.

§ Mr. Speaker
I am sure that that was heard on the Government Front Bench. It is not a matter for me.

Several Hon. Members
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
Mr. Barry Jones.

§ Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda)
Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I have called Mr. Barry Jones.

Mr. Barry Jone (Alyn and Deeside)
On a point of order arising out of Welsh questions, Mr. Speaker. It may have been obvious to you, Sir, that, of the first 10 oral questions tabled, five were tabled by Conservative Members with English constituencies. From where I was sitting, the only Conservative Back Bench Members with Welsh constituencies whom I could see were the hon. Members for Pembroke (Mr Bennett) for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer) and for Cardiff, North (Mr. Jones).
I seek your assistance and guidance, Sir. I and my right hon. and hon. Friends believe that the questions tabled by English Members make it difficult for us to catch your eye in the limited time for Welsh questions. That may be a ploy to prevent us from catching your eye and perhaps to give assistance to Conservative Back Benchers, whose numbers are small. Can you help us on that matter?

§ Mr. Speaker
I think that I can help the right hon. Member. If a question on the Order Paper is reached, the hon. Member who tabled it will be called, from whatever constituency he comes. I think that we did rather well in Welsh questions today. We reached question 17 and only three hon. Members who had questions on the Order Paper were not called for a supplementary question. The hon. Gentleman's complaint does not hold water today.

§ Mr. Jonathan Aitken (Thanet, South)
On a different point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will be aware that many millions of people, particularly those who live in constituencies near the Kent coast, are anxious, for one reason or another, about the future of the Channel tunnel. I understand that Ministers have resisted demands for a statement—they have made that resistance known for private notice questions too—on the grounds that there is no ministerial responsibility for the matter. It is important that no one is allowed to pull the wool over your eyes, Sir, as you are the guardian of Back Benchers and their constituents. I wish to bring to your attention two points which suggest that there is ministerial responsibility for the matter, and that a Government statement should be made.

§ Mr. Speaker
If the hon. Member feels that strongly, he should table a question on the matter. If he is right, and there is Government responsibility, I am sure that he will receive an answer.

Several Hon. Members
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I am on my feet. We have just had Welsh questions. We are about to have an Opposition day debate on a motion tabled by the Scottish Nationalist party.

Several Hon. Members
rose—

§ Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West)
On a point of order—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. Many hon. Members, some of whom are now on their feet, wish to participate in that debate. We should get on with it, rather than have points of order which I cannot answer.

§ Mr. Rogers
Further to the point of order raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Leeds, South (Mr. Rees), Mr. Speaker. You answered his 663 question by saying that it might well be so. The original question was whether the Government had a right to prevent General Leng from appearing before the Select Committee. Can we understand from your answer that the Government have that right and have exercised it?

§ Mr. Speaker
I did not say that. It is a matter for the Select Committee.

§ Mr. Alan Williams
I want to return to the first point of order, Mr. Speaker. You have always regarded it as one of the most important elements of your responsibility to protect the rights of the House of Commons. I know that you regard it as a matter of seriousness when the House has been misled, even if inadvertently. We now have a rather unprecedented situation, in which we need your guidance to protect those rights.
The Prime Minister, as head of the Civil Service, is saying that she was misled by the Civil Service, and therefore inadvertently misled the House. The Prime Minister, as head of the security services, is saying that she was misled by them, and therefore inadvertently misled the House. Now the head of the armed services is saying that he was misled by them, and that he therefore misled the House. This is more than just one ordinary accident. We need at least a statement. Can you, Mr. Speaker, advise us how we can get one?

§ Mr. Speaker
The hon. Gentleman has made the point for himself. In answering a Standing Order No. 20 application, I am responsible only for the difficult decision whether to give it precedence over the business for today or tomorrow.

§ Dr. Dafydd Elis Thomas (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy)
Further to the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones), Mr. Speaker. Over the years, it has been a convention for Welsh Members to participate in Welsh questions, during which we may discuss matters devolved to the Welsh Office. If it is to be the practice that English Members are to come to the defence of the Secretary of State for Wales, clearly there is less time for Opposition Members to question the Minister and we shall have to press for more time to be made available for Welsh questions.

§ Mr. Nicholas Bennett (Pembroke)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Michael Jack (Fylde)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
Is it on the same matter?

§ Mr. Jack
Yes, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Bennett
Yes, Sir.

§ Mr. Speaker
Very well. Let us hear Mr. Bennett first.

§ Mr. Bennett
Further to the point of order of the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas), Mr. Speaker. Can we rest assured that this is a United Kingdom Parliament and that any hon. Member may take part in any part of our discussions? If the Labour party is so concerned about the matter, why are its three spokesmen on English health matters all Scottish Members of Parliament?

§ Mr. Jack
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I resent the imputation that English Members tabling questions on Welsh matters is a barrier to Welsh members entering the discussion. There is always the opportunity of a supplementary question. Hon. Gentlemen have ignored the fact that many of the matters, particularly those relating to north Wales, also relate to the north-west of England.

Several Hon. Members
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I do not think that I can say any more than I have said. Hon. Members need only look at the Order Paper today to see that virtually all hon. Members who were present in the Chamber—

§ Mr. Roy Hughes (Newport, East)
indicated dissent—

§ Mr. Speaker
—including the hon. Gentleman who is. shaking his head—were called to ask questions.

§ Mr. Richard Livsey (Brecon and Radnor)
rose—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I am on my feet. This is a United Kingdom Parliament, and today we have a debate in the name of the Scottish Nationalist party. We should get on with it.