§ Q1. Mr. Tom ClarkeTo ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 13 February.
§ The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be 136 having further meetings later today. This evening I shall preside at a dinner in honour of the Prime Minister of Poland.
§ Mr. ClarkeDoes the Prime Minister agree that the release of Nelson Mandela—a person who symbolises South Africa's cry for freedom—was made possible only because of pressure from the free world, including economic pressure from the rest of Europe and the United States? Does the Prime Minister accept that it is essential to maintain that pressure if a majority of South Africans are to be free to travel in their own country, free to have their own businesses, free to have access to higher standards of education and child care and the rest, and free—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman must ask a question, not make a speech.
§ Mr. ClarkeDoes the Prime Minister agree that there should be pressure so that all the people of South Africa can be truly free citizens of a truly free South Africa?
§ The Prime MinisterI believe that improvements are coming about in South Africa because there is a general agreement there, and the world over, that apartheid is wrong and that it must go. Everyone there is coming to realise that. I do not believe that we should have got the results that we have, including the release of Nelson Mandela, had we introduced comprehensive economic sanctions—that would have caused increasing violence and bitterness—instead of doing as we have done, and steadily improved prospects for peaceful negotiations, which I am sure Mandela stands for, too.
§ Q2. Mr. WilshireTo ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 13 February.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Mr. WilshireWill my right hon. Friend confirm that her Government have no plans to allow local government councillors access to income tax returns? Will she also confirm that her Government have no proposals to penalise those who improve their homes by their own hard work? Does she agree that it is utterly cynical to refuse to give details of half-baked policies simply because local government elections are in the offing?
§ The Prime MinisterI agree with my hon. Friend on all three points. Details of income tax matters are private and between the taxpayer and the income tax authorities. They are not to be handed on to anyone else, as they are private and confidential. Moreover, it is wrong to discourage people from making improvements to their houses by increasing the local charge when they do so. We shall continue with the community charge, which is the best local tax that has yet been invented.
§ Mr. KinnockWhen Nelson Mandela says that sanctions must stay as an essential pressure for change, how can the Prime Minister think that she knows better than Mr. Mandela?
§ The Prime MinisterMr. Mandela also said that he approved of armed struggle. I disagree with him on that; and I disagree with him on the present sanctions. When the South African Government were doing things with which we thoroughly disagreed, we put on some very minor 137 gesture sanctions to demonstrate our disapproval. Now that they are doing things which we have urged them to do and have helped them to bring about, I believe it is right to reduce the sanctions that we have, particularly as they are only voluntary.
§ Mr. KinnockDoes the Prime Minister realise that for her to insist that she knows better than Nelson Mandela is both arrogant and absurd? Does she also realise that, if she says no to the single request that he has made to her and the international community, what she is saying to Nelson Mandela is, "You are on your own; we are turning our back on you"?
§ The Prime MinisterNo, Sir. I think the right hon. Gentleman possibly takes his instructions from the African National Congress—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. If the Prime Minister made some comment, will she rephrase it please?
§ The Prime MinisterI do not take my instructions from the ANC, which believes in comprehensive economic sanctions, which we have totally rejected—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I confess that there was so much noise that I could not hear what the Prime Minister said. I call the Prime Minister.
§ The Prime Ministerrose—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. This sounds awful. If an unparliamentary expression was used, I am sure the Prime Minister would wish to withdraw it.
§ The Prime MinisterI shall start my reply again. The ANC believes in comprehensive economic sanctions—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The Prime Minister must be given an opportunity to reply—[Interruption.] Order. The Prime Minister said that she would start her reply again.
§ The Prime MinisterI said that I would start my reply again having withdrawn the previous words. I have said that now three times and hon. Gentlemen cannot hear me. The ANC stands for comprehensive economic sanctions; so does the Labour party. It stands for armed struggle; so, apparently, does the Labour party. It stands for nationalisation—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. This is a very disorderly Prime Minister's Question Time. We must hear the reply.
§ The Prime MinisterThe ANC stands for nationalisation of most of the economic means of the country. Mr. Mandela naturally said he supports all three in what I would call his ritual speech. I believe he is making very much better and more peaceful speeches during his press conferences. I believe that what he said was ritual. There are other people in South Africa such as Chief Buthelezi and Helen Suzman who have been fighting for the end of apartheid far longer than many people in the House. They are absolutely against sanctions. I believe that it is right to 138 encourage President de Klerk and the people in South Africa to go further in the way we want by removing some of the sanctions.
§ Mr. ShersbyHas my right hon. Friend, as a London Member, had the opportunity to study the first Metropolitan police customer survey that was published today? Is she aware that 84 per cent. of people who visited police stations expressed satisfaction with the way in which the police handled their cases and found them polite, efficient and courteous? Does she agree that that is a very good result?
§ The Prime MinisterYes, That is a very good result. Most people would wish to express their thanks to the police for protecting us and upholding and enforcing the law.
§ Mr. AshdownHow many of the Prime Minister's Community, Commonwealth American colleagues were consulted before her lonely call to remove sanctions at the weekend? Is it not rather odd that when she is asked to support unity and freedom in Germany she says that there must first be massive international consultation, but that when she is asked to maintain international sanctions on South Africa she is prepared to reject that unilaterally and alone?
§ The Prime MinisterThe right hon. Gentleman does not fully appreciate precisely what happened. As for United Nations sanctions, of course the arms embargo remains in place because we all agreed to it and are bound by it. Orders through the European Economic Community that passed through the House, in particular sanctions on iron and steel which suit some people, have to be upheld, as do those on Krugerrands. Those are orders and they cannot be changed without full agreement. I wrote to Mr. Haughey and have received a letter back from him agreeing that the recent measures in South Africa
are indeed significant developmentsand that EC Foreign Ministers should consider next weekto what extent profound and irreversible changes can be said to have already taken place in South Africa that would justify a relaxation of the measures imposed by the Twelve.Those are orders which have gone through the House.The sanctions to which I am referring are totally voluntary: a voluntary ban on investment from outside and a voluntary arrangement that we do not try to encourage tourists. Those are not bound by orders of any kind.
I was glad to see that the Archbishop of Canterbury also said—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. These are very important matters. The Prime Minister.
§ The Prime MinisterThere needs to be—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I remind the House that not only is the House interested to hear about these major matters, but others outside are interested.
§ The Prime MinisterThe Archbishop of Canterbury said:
There needs to be some measure of encouragement … if that requires some release of sanctions, I think that will be understandable.139 President Bush made it clear that he does not think—[HON. MEMBERS: "Come on!"]—The right hon. Gentleman asked me a question and I am trying to reply. President Bush—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The Prime Minister has a right to give her reply.
§ The Prime MinisterPresident Bush has made clear that he does not think that sanctions are necessarily the right answer, but he is bound by a law passed by Congress. In so far as we are bound by laws, we uphold them, and in so far as we are not—[Interruption]
§ Mr. Quentin DaviesDoes my right hon. Friend agree that issuing death threats is an extremely serious crime which in all circumstances should be pursued with the full and impartial rigour of the law? Does she agree that when a foreign Government start behaving like a gang of hoodlums and issuing death threats against a British subject, it is quite impossible for us to conceive of having normal, civilised diplomatic relations with them?
§ The Prime MinisterI agree with my hon. Friend. Issuing death threats is totally unacceptable. Freedom of speech and freedom to write is freedom to say things with which other people do not agree. That is one of our fundamental freedoms; we must uphold it, and will continue to uphold it. I do not believe that such words or such writing will do anything to damage the great religions, which are far older than those who write about them.
§ Q3. Ms. RuddockTo ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 13 February.
§ The Prime MinisterI refer the hon. Lady to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
§ Ms. RuddockIf the Prime Minister had just spent 27 years in prison—
§ Mr. KaufmanAs she should.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I have never heard the House behave in this way at Prime Minister's Question Time. I call the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Ms. Ruddock), who has a right to ask her question.
§ Ms. RuddockIf the Prime Minister had just spent 27 years in prison, separated from her family, but found when she was released that she and people like her were unable to live or work where they wished and did not have the vote, would she not want the support of the international community in continuing sanctions against the Government of that country?
§ The Prime MinisterNo. I do not think that sanctions have achieved anything—[ Interruption.] As to getting rid of them, if the Labour party had had its way we would have had comprehensive economic sanctions, creating poverty and unemployment in South Africa and a good deal of unemployment here. That is not the way to keep South Africa as the most prosperous economy in Africa. Many people from the front-line states go to it and it will continue to be prosperous provided that it is run in the same way when the Government in South Africa are elected on the basis of one person, one vote.
§ Mr. SpeakerI will take points of order later. I call Mr. Michael Howard—[Interruption.] Order. The whole House knows that I take points of order after statements.