§ 12. Sir George YoungTo ask the Secretary of State for Social Security by how much pensioners' incomes from occupational pensions have risen since 1979.
§ 16. Sir Trevor SkeetTo ask the Secretary of State for Social Security by how much pensioners' incomes from occupational pensions have risen since 1979.
§ Mr. NewtonWith permission, Mr. Speaker, and I hope without the previous opposition, I will answer question 12 together with question 16.
Between 1979 and 1986 pensioners received a 56 per cent. real increase in income from their occupational pensions.
§ Sir George YoungIs not it increasingly irrelevant to use the level of the state retirement pension as a barometer for the living standards of pensioners? Will my right hon. Friend consider publishing regularly, alongside average industrial earnings, the average incomes of pensioners?
§ Mr. NewtonI shall certainly consider my hon. Friend's suggestion, because the first part of his supplementary question is absolutely right. It is increasingly important to consider what is happening to pensioners' incomes as a whole. On average, the increase has been substantial.
§ Sir Trevor SkeetThe important consideration is the real percentage increase in the total earnings of pensioners, as Ministers have said, and although the number of occupational pensions has increased greatly over the years—thanks to the Conservatives—will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the fact that a small section of the public still depend on state pensions only and that they are being crushed under their burdens?
§ Mr. NewtonWe have very much borne that in mind. As one of my hon. Friends said, it is precisely for that reason that about £200 million of additional state money was steered through the income support and housing benefit system to those least well-off pensioners as recently as last October.
§ Mr. KirkwoodDoes the Secretary of State recognise that those pensioners are struggling? Does he agree that it would be wrong to accept the suggestion of the hon. Member for Ealing, Acton (Sir G. Young) that the average 635 incomes of people on occupational pensions should be used to determine Government policy? As has been said before, the people who are suffering are those who have to live on the state pension and nothing else.
§ Mr. NewtonThat was not what my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton suggested, and it was certainly not what I agreed with. The income of pensioners is an important and relevant fact in judging the balance of public policy. It is one of the things that led us to believe that it was right to make special increases for the least well-off pensioners, using the state's resources.
§ Mr. WinnickHow does the Minister explain the position of pensioners who have written to me, some of whom have a total income of no more than £54 a week, out of which they pay £10 or £12 a week in council rents? Councils have told me that they have no alternative but to charge such rents because of the Government's policy on housing benefit. Why should constituents on small incomes, such as those to whom my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden) and I have referred, have to live lives of poverty and deprivation largely because of the Government's policy on pensions and housing benefits?
§ Mr. NewtonThe pensioners to whom the hon. Gentleman referred are precisely those who benefited principally from the Government's measures last October in respect of income support and housing benefit. That was the right thing to do.
§ Mr. FavellIf one talks about a pensioner living on the basic pension alone, it sounds as though he is poor. Is it not a fact, however, that a person on the basic pension who has no occupational pension and no savings is entitled as of right to income support and to housing benefit if he needs help towards the costs of his accommodation?
§ Mr. NewtonYes. A pensioner who had only the basic state retirement pension would certainly, unless he were living in someone else's household, be helped by income support and housing benefit.