§ 6. Mr. OrmeTo ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when he last met his European counterparts to discuss shipbuilding.
§ Mr. LeighMy noble Friend the Minister for Industry represented Her Majesty's Government at the Industry Council on 26 November at which the seventh directive on aid to shipbuilding was adopted unanimously.
§ Mr. OrmeDid the Minister on that occasion raise the question of Cammell Laird, a shipyard which is crucial to the economy of the north-west of England and to thousands of workers? Did he ask for intervention aid and raise that matter with the Commissioner? People in the north-west want to know what the Government propose to do about the survival of that shipyard.
§ Mr. LeighThe future for Cammell Laird is not strictly relevant to the seventh directive, but I will answer the right hon. Gentleman, because this is a serious and important point. We are lucky to have such a hard-working local Member as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Mrs. Chalker), who has been doing tremendous work trying to help the company to find orders. I also pay credit to the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) who, as always, takes a positive and sensible view of such matters.
295 The problem with Cammell Laird, as the right hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Orme) is aware, is that it was agreed that the shipbuilding intervention fund would not be available to Cammell Laird. We have been back to the Commission and argued the case on behalf of the company, but we received a firm no. Subsidies will not be available to the company. It would be counterproductive for me to offer any hope that the Commission is likely to change its mind.
§ Mr. Frank FieldWhile we do not want the Minister to offer baseless hope, will he undertake to return to the Commission and specifically raise the matter of individual orders for which the company requests intervention fund backing? Does he accept that his negotiating position has changed as the negotiations on the seventh directive have progressed? At the beginning, it looked as though the Jobs in the naval yards were secure, but it now appears that the 22,000 jobs in the naval yards will collapse to just over 8,000. On that basis, in this last month of negotiations, should not the Minister go back to the Commission and argue the British case to defend those jobs? If he fails to do that, not only will Cammell Laird suffer, but the Minister will have locked the whole of British shipbuilding into further decline.
§ Mr. LeighThe hon. Gentleman's first question was also put to me yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey. I am prepared to give the commitment that the hon. Gentleman asked for. I will go back and ask the Commission to waive the rule for particular orders, but I must be honest and say that, so far, Sir Leon Brittan, on behalf of the Commission, has given a very firm no. However, we will try again.
§ Mr. MaginnisWill the Minister assure us that the Government are not out of line with our European partners in relation to subvention for shipbuilding? Does he realise that the majority of our European partners would like to see subvention remain at about 20 per cent. for at least six months and then, if it must be reduced, have it reduced in a structured way and not by the massive 50 per cent. currently proposed?
§ Mr. LeighI know that the hon. Gentleman takes a close interest in these matters. Indeed, he is leading a delegation to see me this afternoon. We are anxious to help Harland and Wolff in every way we can. It would be unwise for me to speculate on the outcome of negotiations that are still proceeding on the automatic degressivity of shipbuilding aid—[Interruption.] For those not familiar with European jargon, degressivity is the year-by-year cut in subsidies to shipbuilding. I repeat what I said in the debate on shipbuilding—it is extremely unlikely that aid will be cut to below the 10 per cent. margin. It will be somewhere between 10 and 20 per cent.
§ Dr. GodmanWhile the small Ferguson yard in Port Glasgow is thriving, principally because it recently signed an order with assistance from the intervention fund, the economy of the lower Clyde would be transformed if Scott Lithgow were allowed to compete successfully for orders for large ships. As that yard has been denied access to the intervention fund for more than five years, does the Minister recall the Commission's amendment, which he quoted the other day, to the effect that after five years a 296 shipyard may be given access to the intervention fund? Will the Minister give Scott Lithgow's case the most serious consideration?
§ Mr. LeighWe are anxious to help our manufacturers in any way we can and I should be happy to give the most serious consideration to Scott Lithgow's case, but the general position, as the hon. Gentleman hinted, is that the Commission is absolutely firm about the rule of up to five years. However, there may be more flexibility after five years and I am happy to take up the hon. Gentleman's. suggestion and go back to the Commission.
§ Mr. SayeedMy hon. Friend will be aware that in the past the Commission has changed the intervention rules for specific orders. May I, therefore, warmly welcome the commitment that he has given to the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) to go back with a specific request for intervention funds for specific orders?