National Rivers Authority (Hansard, 30 April 1990)

§ 10. Dr. Kim Howells
To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of the National Rivers Authority in Wales; and what matters were discussed.

§ Mr. Grist
My right hon. Friend has not yet had an opportunity to meet the chairman of the NRA's Welsh region.

§ Dr. Howells
Given the widespread concern in Wales about the filthy state of the river banks, and given the Government's declared interest in cleaning up the environment, will the Secretary of State show his confidence in the work of the NRA by taking a running jump into the River Taff, which flows through my constituency?

§ Mr. Grist
I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is complaining about water quality or litter, both of which he has complained about from time to time. On litter, various proposals have been made to try to arrive at a just solution on exactly who will pick it up. On the quality of the water, the report in 1984 gave Wales a clean bill of health—other than one small tributary of the Rhymney, all rivers in Wales came in classes 1 or 2. The latest examination by the NRA, which will be completed this year with the results being available next year, will provide a more up-to-date position.

§ Sir Anthony Meyer
Has my hon. Friend or my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State discussed with the chairman of the NRA the possibility of that authority assuming sole responsibility for sea defences? Is my hon. Friend aware that added to the anxieties of my Towyn constituents—who have been so disastrously invaded by the sea—is the concern that responsibility for sea defences is divided between four authorities? That is not reassuring.

§ Mr. Grist
I acknowledge my hon. Friend's remarks, which we shall consider in the light of the recent flooding disaster in north Wales.

§ Mr. Rowlands
When the Minister next meets the chairman of the National Rivers Authority, will they pay special attention to a problem that has arisen in Rhymney, where the south of England company Euromet has dumped thousands of drums of toxic waste close to the banks of the River Rhymney, near a school and major road? Will the Minister convey to the NRA's chairman that the whole of Rhymney deeply objects to such dumping?

§ Mr. Grist
I imagine that the local council and planning authority have some powers in the circumstance that the hon. Gentleman describes. If any toxic waste entered the water, the NRA could prosecute if it felt that that was the right action to take.

§ Mr. Barry Jones
The Minister should be able to tell the National Rivers Authority who is responsible for the sea wall that was breached, be it British Rail or the local authorities. He should study carefully the grave psychological damage as well as the financial damage and destruction of property that followed the flooding in Clwyd. If the Welsh Office can find £70,000 for new typists' chairs, surely the Government can find £70,000 for each of the three borough authorities concerned and for Clwyd county council, to cope with the consequences of the flooding. Ministers should show more understanding and compassion, and should take urgent action to help the 1,000 very worried people who are still homeless in north Wales.

§ Mr. Grist
The hon. Gentleman overlooks the extraordinary settlement that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State managed to arrange, whereby the Bellwin rules apply to 85 per cent. of eligible expenditure. Colwyn, for example, is likely to receive more than £1 million as a consequence of that arrangement. Other finance will be available, and we shall certainly consider all the conditions that arise and the bills that are eventually entered. But the hon. Gentleman must face the fact that ordinary citizens also have their responsibilities, and therefore this is not as clear-cut a bleeding heart case as the hon. Gentleman and some of his hon. Friends sometimes make out.

Dr. Thomas
My neighbour, the hon. Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer) referred to the need for measures to prevent such a disaster recurring. Will the Welsh Office arrange for a full survey of sea defences and bring together all the authorities concerned—including the NRA and British Rail, which has major indirect responsibilities for sea defence strategy—to ensure that such a disaster is never repeated?

§ Mr. Grist
I do not believe that such action is necessary in respect of most of the Welsh coast, because the parts of the coastline that are most exposed and at risk are already known. The hon. Gentleman may be unaware that the local authorities in the flooded areas had already received various forms of finance through the Welsh Office. Prestatyn, for example, was well defended because it had built up its sea wall using urban money from the present Administration. Nevertheless, I am sure that the local authorities concerned will contact the Welsh Office if they have not already done so, and we shall undertake any investigation that is necessary.

§ Mr. Ian Bruce
My hon. Friend the Minister said that he has not yet met the chairman of the National Rivers Authority. When the flooding occurred, many right hon. and hon. Members called for discussions with that body on establishing a system of national co-ordination, to avoid any similar disasters in future. The effectiveness of the construction of adequate sea defences at one point along the Welsh coast may be totally negated if proper defences do not exist elsewhere. Perhaps there is a need for co-ordination of the sort suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer).

§ Mr. Grist
We are moving away from the matters that are relevant to the NRA. Nevertheless, the flooding in north Wales was a major disaster and one in which, unusually, British Rail was involved—in the sense that it is not an organisation that springs to mind in such a context. I am told that not only has the breach in the sea defences been made good but the sea defences are better than before. Britain's sea defences and the effect that global warming may have are taken extremely seriously by the Government.