Engineering Apprenticeships

HC Deb 24 April 1990 vol 171 cc143-4

3. Mr. Grocott

To ask the Secretary of State for Employment what were the numbers of engineering apprenticeships available in the west midlands (a) in 1979, (b) in 1984 and (c) in the latest year for which figures are available.

Mr. Nicholls

Engineering apprenticeships are essentially a matter between an employer and the individual trainee; no regular statistics are maintained about them. There are a number of training routes for skilled engineering and technician workers, of which apprenticeships are only one.

The engineering industry training board however, compiles a register of those completing the first stage of engineering craft and technician training. For the west midlands area the figures are 3,710 in 1978–79, 1,320 in 1983–84 and 1,903 in 1988–89.

Mr. Grocott

The House will understand why the Minister wanted to fudge that reply. The answer from official Department of Employment statistics in that in 1981 manufacturing apprenticeships in the west midlands totalled 17,700 whereas in 1989 the figure had fallen to 6,900. Is not that a dreadful indictment of 10 years of Thatcherism? How on earth can we expect to compete in the 1990s if we are not giving our young people the apprenticeship opportunities that they have had in the past?

Mr. Nicholls

The only indictment is that of the hon. Gentleman for not having read his own question before coming into the Chamber. He has just asked a supplementary question about manufacturing apprenticeships when his main question dealt with engineering apprenticeships. I have given the hon. Gentleman the answer to that question. I assume that other opportunities are of some interest to the hon. Gentleman, so he should note that there were 4,700 engineering training places available on YTS in the west midlands and 4,500 trainees. That is something which he ought to welcome, but clearly he will not.

Mr. Beaumont-Dark

Does my hon. Friend agree that many good things are happening in training in Birmingham, as is shown by the fact that Rover is taking on 1,200 more people with its almost unique 24-hour scheme for building cars? Does my hon. Friend also agree that one of the problems in training has been that unions are loth to have apprenticeships because they often demand starting salaries which are too high for people who are learning? Also, unions think that people who are training are taking their jobs. How are we to create new jobs when that obscurantist attitude persists?

Mr. Nicholls

My hon. Friend is entirely right. If one considers the decline in the apprenticeships system, one realises that, by and large, what killed that system off was union pressure to pay apprentices virtually the same rate as qualified people. The good thing about that is that in recent years, under this Government, ways of obtaining training other than traditional apprenticeships have been devised. That is good news, and it underpins the good news to which my hon. Friend referred a moment ago.

Mr. Fatchett

Is not the real decline in apprenticeships in the west midlands a direct result of the Government's policies on training? Has not the 100 per cent. decline in apprenticeships over the past 10 years led to skill shortages in the engineering industry in the west midlands? It is clear from the Minister's answer that the Government have been concerned with quantity and not quality. That is why so many firms in the west midlands engineering industry are looking for skilled workers. The Government have failed young people and the engineering industry in the past decade.

Mr. Nicholls

Virtually nothing in what the hon. Gentleman says accords with the facts. He bemoans the fact that in his constituency firms are looking for skilled workers. We can accept it from him that under a Labour Government they would not be making that search because there would be no possibility of offering jobs. The hon. Gentleman's position would be a great deal more credible if every training initiative that the Government have launched, such as employment training, training and enterprise councils and the youth training scheme had not been attacked and denigrated by the Opposition. That is their contribution to training and it is a thoroughgoing disgrace.