§ Lords amendment: No. 330, in page 162, line 6, at end insert—
§ "2C. The following section shall be inserted after section 13—
§ "Reduced liability
§ 13A.—(1) The Secretary of State may make regulations as regards any case where—
- (a) a person is liable to pay an amount to an authority in respect of a personal community charge as it has effect for any chargeable financial year which is prescribed, and
- (b) prescribed conditions are fulfilled.
§ (2) The regulations may provide that the amount he is liable to pay shall be an amount which—
- (a) is less than the amount it would be apart from the regulations, and
- (b) is found in accordance with prescribed rules.
§ (3) This section applies whether the liability to pay the amount mentioned in subsection (1) above arises under
792Mr. PattenWe certainly intend to use television for part of the advertising. We have not decided precisely how to allocate advertising for the interim relief scheme or the rebates, but I think that we must ensure that we advertise both schemes as effectively and comprehensively as possible. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are well aware of the parameters for advertising, about which he and some of his hon. Friends have shown such priestly concern.
§ Mr. MaxtonShould not the Government give more money to the local authorities—which are much better able to identify those who need rebates—rather than leaving the task to centrally funded television and national newspaper advertising schemes, which, as the Scottish experience has shown, do not really work?
Mr. PattenI think that national advertising is probably the best way to deal with what are, after all, national issues. I do not, however, rule out the possibility —although not necessarily in this instance—of occasionally using local authorities to get such important messages across, and also using voluntary organisations.
If I have been unable to deal with any points during my brief remarks, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland or I will try to deal with them in correspondence.
This has been a useful debate. It has given us a chance to cover a number of the important changes that we are making to the community charge. By and large, both sides of the House have been able to agree—with one or two honourable exceptions—that the domestic rating system is inequitable and should go. We have put forward our proposals for its replacement. We are still not entirely clear about the Opposition's proposals: they seem as mysterious as Zsa Zsa Gabor's age. When we find out what they are, however, we shall want to provide exemplication so that the public know precisely what the consequences would be. In the meantime, until the Opposition produce their next policy, we will get on with the job of governing the country.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Lords amendments Nos 256 to 264 and 328 and 329 agreed to.[Some with Special Entry.]
793§ section 12 above or arises under that section read with section 13 above.
§ (4) The conditions mentioned in subsection (1) above may be prescribed by reference to such factors as the Secretary of State sees fit; and in particular such factors may include all or any of the following—
- (a) rates for a period before 1 April 1990;
- (b) the circumstances of, or other matters relating to, the person concerned;
- (c) an amount relating to the authority concerned and specified, or to be specified, for the purposes of the regulations in a report laid, or to be laid, before the House of Commons;
- (d) such other amounts as may be prescribed or arrived at in a prescribed manner;
- (e) the making of an application by the person concerned.
§ (5) The rules mentioned in subsection (2) above may be prescribed by reference to such factors as the Secretary of State sees fit; and in particular such factors may include all or any of the factors mentioned in subsection (4)(a) to (d) above.
§ (6) Without prejudice to the generality of section 143(2) below, regulations under this section may include—
- (a) provision requiring the Secretary of State to specify in a report, for the purposes of the regulations, an amount in relation to each charging authority;
- (b) provision requiring him to lay the report before the House of Commons;
- (c) provision for the review of any prescribed decision of a charging authority relating to the application or operation of the regulations;
- (d) provision that no appeal may be made to a valuation and community charge tribunal in respect of such a decision, notwithstanding section 23(2) below.
§ (7) To the extent that he would not have power to do so apart from this subsection, the Secretary of State may—
- (a) include in regulations under this section such amendments of any social security instrument as he thinks expedient in consequence of the regulations under this section;
- (b) include in any social security instrument such provision as he thinks expedient in consequence of regulations under this section.
§ (8) In subsection (7) above "social security instrument" means an order or regulations made, or falling to be made, by the Secretary of State under the Social Security Act 1986."
§
2D. In section 16 (joint and several liability: spouses) in subsection (l)(b) for "(read with section 13 above, where it is appropriate)" there shall be substituted "(or that section read with section 13 or 13A above, or both)".
§ Read a Second time.
§ Amendment proposed to the Lords amendment: (f), in line 66, at end insert—
§ 13B—(1) The Secretary of State may make regulations which—
- (a) quantify the aggregate amount of reduced liabilities calculated under a proposed scheme of reduced liability on an individual basis under Section 13A above.
- (b) amend any regulations made under Section 135 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988 to distribute the amount calculated under (a) above by way of increased community charge benefit.
§ (2) Before deciding whether to make regulations under this section or under Section 13A above the Secretary of State shall consult such bodies representing local government, families with children and old age pensioners as appear to him to be concerned,'.—[Mr. Blunkett]
§ Question put, That the amendment to the Lords amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 202, Noes 278.
797| Division No. 369] | [11.18 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Boyes, Roland |
| Adams, Allen (Paisley N) | Bradley, Keith |
| Allen, Graham | Bray, Dr Jeremy |
| Alton, David | Brown, Gordon (D'mline E) |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E) |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith) |
| Ashton, Joe | Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Buchan, Norman |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | Buckley, George J. |
| Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich) | Caborn, Richard |
| Battle, John | Callaghan, Jim |
| Beckett, Margaret | Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) |
| Beith, A. J. | Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley) |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Campbell-Savours, D. N. |
| Bennett, A. F.(D'nt'n & R'dish) | Canavan, Dennis |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Carlile, Alex (Mont'g) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Cartwright, John |
| Blair, Tony | Clark, Dr David (S Shields) |
| Blunkett, David | Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) |
| Boateng, Paul | Clay, Bob |
| Clelland, David | Livingstone, Ken |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Cohen, Harry | Loyden, Eddie |
| Coleman, Donald | McAllion, John |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | McAvoy, Thomas |
| Cook, Robin (Livingston) | McCartney, Ian |
| Corbett, Robin | Macdonald, Calum A. |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | McFall, John |
| Cousins, Jim | McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) |
| Crowther, Stan | McLeish, Henry |
| Cryer, Bob | McNamara, Kevin |
| Cummings, John | McWilliam, John |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Madden, Max |
| Cunningham, Dr John | Mahon, Mrs Alice |
| Dalyell, Tam | Marek, Dr John |
| Darling, Alistair | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) | Martin, Michael J.(Springburn) |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l) | Martlew, Eric |
| Dixon, Don | Maxton, John |
| Dobson, Frank | Meacher, Michael |
| Doran, Frank | Meale, Alan |
| Douglas, Dick | Michael, Alun |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) |
| Dunnachie, Jimmy | Moonie, Dr Lewis |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth | Morgan, Rhodri |
| Eadie, Alexander | Morley, Elliot |
| Eastham, Ken | Morris, Rt Hon J.(Aberavon) |
| Evans, John (St Helens N) | Mowlam, Marjorie |
| Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E) | Mullin, Chris |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) | Murphy, Paul |
| Fatchett, Derek | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
| Faulds, Andrew | O'Brien, William |
| Fearn, Ronald | O'Neill, Martin |
| Field, Frank (Birkenhead) | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n) | Parry, Robert |
| Fisher, Mark | Patchett, Terry |
| Flannery, Martin | Pendry, Tom |
| Flynn, Paul | Pike, Peter L. |
| Foster, Derek | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Fraser, John | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Fyfe, Maria | Radice, Giles |
| Galloway, George | Randall, Stuart |
| Garrett, John (Norwich South) | Redmond, Martin |
| George, Bruce | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn |
| Godman, Dr Norman A. | Reid, Dr John |
| Gordon, Mildred | Richardson, Jo |
| Gould, Bryan | Robertson, George |
| Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Rooker, Jeff |
| Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Grocott, Bruce | Rowlands, Ted |
| Hardy, Peter | Ruddock, Joan |
| Harman, Ms Harriet | Sheerman, Barry |
| Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Short, Clare |
| Henderson, Doug | Skinner, Dennis |
| Hinchliffe, David | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| Hoey, Ms Kate (Vauxhall) | Smith, J. P.(Vale of Glam) |
| Hogg, N.(C'nauld & Kilsyth) | Snape, Peter |
| Home Robertson, John | Soley, Clive |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Spearing, Nigel |
| Howells, Geraint | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) | Stott, Roger |
| Hoyle, Doug | Straw, Jack |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark) | Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck) |
| Illsley, Eric | Turner, Dennis |
| Ingram, Adam | Vaz, Keith |
| Janner, Greville | Wall, Pat |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) | Wallace, James |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W) | Warded, Gareth (Gower) |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Wareing, Robert N. |
| Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil | Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C) |
| Kirkwood, Archy | Welsh, Andrew (Angus E) |
| Lambie, David | Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N) |
| Lamond, James | Williams, Rt Hon Alan |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Williams, Alan W.(Carm'then) |
| Leighton, Ron | Wilson, Brian |
| Lewis, Terry | Winnick, David |
| Litherland, Robert | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Worthington, Tony | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Young, David (Bolton SE) | Mr. Frank Haynes and Mrs. Llin Golding. |
| NOES | |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Alexander, Richard | Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Fishburn, John Dudley |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Fookes, Dame Janet |
| Amess, David | Forman, Nigel |
| Amos, Alan | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Arbuthnot, James | Fox, Sir Marcus |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Franks, Cecil |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Freeman, Roger |
| Ashby, David | French, Douglas |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Gale, Roger |
| Atkins, Robert | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Baker, Rt Hon K.(Mole Valley) | Gill, Christopher |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Baldry, Tony | Goodhart, Sir Philip |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Batiste, Spencer | Gorman, Mrs Teresa |
| Bellingham, Henry | Gorst, John |
| Bendall, Vivian | Gow, Ian |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Gregory, Conal |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) |
| Boswell, Tim | Grist, Ian |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Ground, Patrick |
| Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n) | Grylls, Michael |
| Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) | Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn |
| Bowis, John | Hague, William |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes | Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Brazier, Julian | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Browne, John (Winchester) | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) | Hannam, John |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Hargreaves, A.(B'ham H'll Gr') |
| Budgen, Nicholas | Harris, David |
| Burns, Simon | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Burt, Alistair | Hawkins, Christopher |
| Butcher, John | Hayes, Jerry |
| Butler, Chris | Hayward, Robert |
| Butterfill, John | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Carlisle, John, (Luton N) | Heddle, John |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) |
| Carrington, Matthew | Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE) |
| Carttiss, Michael | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Cash, William | Hill, James |
| Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda | Hind, Kenneth |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Chapman, Sydney | Holt, Richard |
| Chope, Christopher | Hordern, Sir Peter |
| Churchill, Mr | Howard, Michael |
| Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n) | Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Howarth, G.(Cannock & B'wd) |
| Clark, Sir W.(Croydon S) | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Clarke, Rt Hon K.(Rushcliffe) | Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) |
| Conway, Derek | Hughes, Robert G.(Harrow W) |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) | Hunt, David (Wirral W) |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Hunter, Andrew |
| Couchman, James | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Cran, James | Irvine, Michael |
| Davis, David (Boothferry) | Irving, Charles |
| Day, Stephen | Jack, Michael |
| Devlin, Tim | Janman, Tim |
| Dicks, Terry | Jessel, Toby |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Dover, Den | Jones, Robert B (Herts W) |
| Dunn, Bob | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Dykes, Hugh | Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine |
| Eggar, Tim | Key, Robert |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Kilfedder, James |
| Evennett, David | King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) |
| Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas | King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Fallon, Michael | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Favell, Tony | Knapman, Roger |
| Knight, Greg (Derby North) | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Knox, David | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Lamont, Rt Hon Norman | Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley |
| Lee, John (Pendle) | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) | Paice, James |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Patnick, Irvine |
| Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Patten, Rt Hon Chris (Bath) |
| Lightbown, David | Patten, John (Oxford W) |
| Lilley, Peter | Pawsey, James |
| Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant) | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Porter, Barry (Wirral S) |
| Lord, Michael | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Luce, Rt Hon Richard | Portillo, Michael |
| Macfarlane, Sir Neil | Powell, William (Corby) |
| MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire) | Price, Sir David |
| Maclean, David | Rathbone, Tim |
| McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick | Redwood, John |
| Malins, Humfrey | Renton, Tim |
| Mans, Keith | Riddick, Graham |
| Marland, Paul | Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Marlow, Tony | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Rossi, Sir Hugh |
| Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick | Rost, Peter |
| Miller, Sir Hal | Rowe, Andrew |
| Mills, lain | Rumbold, Mrs Angela |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Ryder, Richard |
| Moate, Roger | Sackville, Hon Tom |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Moss, Malcolm | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Moynihan, Hon Colin | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Mudd, David | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Neale, Gerrard | Shelton, Sir William |
| Nelson, Anthony | Shephard, Mrs G.(Norfolk SW) |
| Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Shersby, Michael | Townsend, Cyril D.(B'heath) |
| Sims, Roger | Tracey, Richard |
| Skeet, Sir Trevor | Tredinnick, David |
| Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) | Trotter, Neville |
| Soames, Hon Nicholas | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Speller, Tony | Viggers, Peter |
| Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W) | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) | Walden, George |
| Squire, Robin | Walker, Bill (T'side North) |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Waller, Gary |
| Steen, Anthony | Ward, John |
| Stern, Michael | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Stevens, Lewis | Warren, Kenneth |
| Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) | Watts, John |
| Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) | Wheeler, John |
| Stewart, Rt Hon Ian (Herts N) | Whitney, Ray |
| Stradling Thomas, Sir John | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Summerson, Hugo | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Tapsell, Sir Peter | Wilkinson, John |
| Taylor, Ian (Esher) | Winterton, Mrs Ann |
| Taylor, John M (Solihull) | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) | Wolfson, Mark |
| Temple-Morris, Peter | Wood, Timothy |
| Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret | Yeo, Tim |
| Thompson, D.(Calder Valley) | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Thorne, Neil | |
| Thornton, Malcolm | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Thumham, Peter | Mr. Alastair Goodlad and |
| Townend, John (Bridlington) | Mr. Tony Durant. |
§ "Schedule 11 (tribunals) shall be amended as follows.
- (2) In paragraph 2 (jurisdiction) the following paragraph shall be inserted at the end—
- "(c) paragraph 5 of Schedule 4A above,"
- (3) In"
§ Read a Second time.
§ Amendment made to the Lords amendment: (a), in line 5, leave out '5' and insert—[Mr. Chris Patten.]
§ Lords amendment No. 400, as amended, agreed to.
§ Lords amendments Nos. 401 to 424 agreed to.