HC Deb 06 November 1989 vol 159 cc791-7

Lords amendment: No. 330, in page 162, line 6, at end insert—

"2C. The following section shall be inserted after section 13—

"Reduced liability

13A.—(1) The Secretary of State may make regulations as regards any case where—

  1. (a) a person is liable to pay an amount to an authority in respect of a personal community charge as it has effect for any chargeable financial year which is prescribed, and
  2. (b) prescribed conditions are fulfilled.

(2) The regulations may provide that the amount he is liable to pay shall be an amount which—

  1. (a) is less than the amount it would be apart from the regulations, and
  2. (b) is found in accordance with prescribed rules.

(3) This section applies whether the liability to pay the amount mentioned in subsection (1) above arises under

Mr. Patten

We certainly intend to use television for part of the advertising. We have not decided precisely how to allocate advertising for the interim relief scheme or the rebates, but I think that we must ensure that we advertise both schemes as effectively and comprehensively as possible. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are well aware of the parameters for advertising, about which he and some of his hon. Friends have shown such priestly concern.

11.15 pm
Mr. Maxton

Should not the Government give more money to the local authorities—which are much better able to identify those who need rebates—rather than leaving the task to centrally funded television and national newspaper advertising schemes, which, as the Scottish experience has shown, do not really work?

Mr. Patten

I think that national advertising is probably the best way to deal with what are, after all, national issues. I do not, however, rule out the possibility —although not necessarily in this instance—of occasionally using local authorities to get such important messages across, and also using voluntary organisations.

If I have been unable to deal with any points during my brief remarks, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland or I will try to deal with them in correspondence.

This has been a useful debate. It has given us a chance to cover a number of the important changes that we are making to the community charge. By and large, both sides of the House have been able to agree—with one or two honourable exceptions—that the domestic rating system is inequitable and should go. We have put forward our proposals for its replacement. We are still not entirely clear about the Opposition's proposals: they seem as mysterious as Zsa Zsa Gabor's age. When we find out what they are, however, we shall want to provide exemplication so that the public know precisely what the consequences would be. In the meantime, until the Opposition produce their next policy, we will get on with the job of governing the country.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords amendments Nos 256 to 264 and 328 and 329 agreed to.[Some with Special Entry.]

section 12 above or arises under that section read with section 13 above.

(4) The conditions mentioned in subsection (1) above may be prescribed by reference to such factors as the Secretary of State sees fit; and in particular such factors may include all or any of the following—

  1. (a) rates for a period before 1 April 1990;
  2. (b) the circumstances of, or other matters relating to, the person concerned;
  3. (c) an amount relating to the authority concerned and specified, or to be specified, for the purposes of the regulations in a report laid, or to be laid, before the House of Commons;
  4. (d) such other amounts as may be prescribed or arrived at in a prescribed manner;
  5. (e) the making of an application by the person concerned.

(5) The rules mentioned in subsection (2) above may be prescribed by reference to such factors as the Secretary of State sees fit; and in particular such factors may include all or any of the factors mentioned in subsection (4)(a) to (d) above.

(6) Without prejudice to the generality of section 143(2) below, regulations under this section may include—

  1. (a) provision requiring the Secretary of State to specify in a report, for the purposes of the regulations, an amount in relation to each charging authority;
  2. (b) provision requiring him to lay the report before the House of Commons;
  3. (c) provision for the review of any prescribed decision of a charging authority relating to the application or operation of the regulations;
  4. (d) provision that no appeal may be made to a valuation and community charge tribunal in respect of such a decision, notwithstanding section 23(2) below.

(7) To the extent that he would not have power to do so apart from this subsection, the Secretary of State may—

  1. (a) include in regulations under this section such amendments of any social security instrument as he thinks expedient in consequence of the regulations under this section;
  2. (b) include in any social security instrument such provision as he thinks expedient in consequence of regulations under this section.

(8) In subsection (7) above "social security instrument" means an order or regulations made, or falling to be made, by the Secretary of State under the Social Security Act 1986."

2D. In section 16 (joint and several liability: spouses) in subsection (l)(b) for "(read with section 13 above, where it is appropriate)" there shall be substituted "(or that section read with section 13 or 13A above, or both)".

Read a Second time.

Amendment proposed to the Lords amendment: (f), in line 66, at end insert—

13B—(1) The Secretary of State may make regulations which—

  1. (a) quantify the aggregate amount of reduced liabilities calculated under a proposed scheme of reduced liability on an individual basis under Section 13A above.
  2. (b) amend any regulations made under Section 135 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988 to distribute the amount calculated under (a) above by way of increased community charge benefit.

(2) Before deciding whether to make regulations under this section or under Section 13A above the Secretary of State shall consult such bodies representing local government, families with children and old age pensioners as appear to him to be concerned,'.—[Mr. Blunkett]

Question put, That the amendment to the Lords amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 202, Noes 278.

Division No. 369] [11.18 pm
Abbott, Ms Diane Boyes, Roland
Adams, Allen (Paisley N) Bradley, Keith
Allen, Graham Bray, Dr Jeremy
Alton, David Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Armstrong, Hilary Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)
Ashton, Joe Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Buchan, Norman
Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) Buckley, George J.
Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich) Caborn, Richard
Battle, John Callaghan, Jim
Beckett, Margaret Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Beith, A. J. Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Campbell-Savours, D. N.
Bennett, A. F.(D'nt'n & R'dish) Canavan, Dennis
Bermingham, Gerald Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)
Bidwell, Sydney Cartwright, John
Blair, Tony Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Blunkett, David Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Boateng, Paul Clay, Bob
Clelland, David Livingstone, Ken
Clwyd, Mrs Ann Lofthouse, Geoffrey
Cohen, Harry Loyden, Eddie
Coleman, Donald McAllion, John
Cook, Frank (Stockton N) McAvoy, Thomas
Cook, Robin (Livingston) McCartney, Ian
Corbett, Robin Macdonald, Calum A.
Corbyn, Jeremy McFall, John
Cousins, Jim McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)
Crowther, Stan McLeish, Henry
Cryer, Bob McNamara, Kevin
Cummings, John McWilliam, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence Madden, Max
Cunningham, Dr John Mahon, Mrs Alice
Dalyell, Tam Marek, Dr John
Darling, Alistair Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) Martin, Michael J.(Springburn)
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l) Martlew, Eric
Dixon, Don Maxton, John
Dobson, Frank Meacher, Michael
Doran, Frank Meale, Alan
Douglas, Dick Michael, Alun
Duffy, A. E. P. Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Dunnachie, Jimmy Moonie, Dr Lewis
Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth Morgan, Rhodri
Eadie, Alexander Morley, Elliot
Eastham, Ken Morris, Rt Hon J.(Aberavon)
Evans, John (St Helens N) Mowlam, Marjorie
Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E) Mullin, Chris
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) Murphy, Paul
Fatchett, Derek Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Faulds, Andrew O'Brien, William
Fearn, Ronald O'Neill, Martin
Field, Frank (Birkenhead) Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n) Parry, Robert
Fisher, Mark Patchett, Terry
Flannery, Martin Pendry, Tom
Flynn, Paul Pike, Peter L.
Foster, Derek Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Fraser, John Quin, Ms Joyce
Fyfe, Maria Radice, Giles
Galloway, George Randall, Stuart
Garrett, John (Norwich South) Redmond, Martin
George, Bruce Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn
Godman, Dr Norman A. Reid, Dr John
Gordon, Mildred Richardson, Jo
Gould, Bryan Robertson, George
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) Rooker, Jeff
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Grocott, Bruce Rowlands, Ted
Hardy, Peter Ruddock, Joan
Harman, Ms Harriet Sheerman, Barry
Healey, Rt Hon Denis Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Heffer, Eric S. Short, Clare
Henderson, Doug Skinner, Dennis
Hinchliffe, David Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Hoey, Ms Kate (Vauxhall) Smith, J. P.(Vale of Glam)
Hogg, N.(C'nauld & Kilsyth) Snape, Peter
Home Robertson, John Soley, Clive
Howarth, George (Knowsley N) Spearing, Nigel
Howells, Geraint Steinberg, Gerry
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) Stott, Roger
Hoyle, Doug Straw, Jack
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark) Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Illsley, Eric Turner, Dennis
Ingram, Adam Vaz, Keith
Janner, Greville Wall, Pat
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) Wallace, James
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W) Warded, Gareth (Gower)
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Wareing, Robert N.
Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)
Kirkwood, Archy Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)
Lambie, David Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)
Lamond, James Williams, Rt Hon Alan
Leadbitter, Ted Williams, Alan W.(Carm'then)
Leighton, Ron Wilson, Brian
Lewis, Terry Winnick, David
Litherland, Robert Wise, Mrs Audrey
Worthington, Tony Tellers for the Ayes:
Young, David (Bolton SE) Mr. Frank Haynes and Mrs. Llin Golding.
Aitken, Jonathan Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Alexander, Richard Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Fishburn, John Dudley
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Fookes, Dame Janet
Amess, David Forman, Nigel
Amos, Alan Fowler, Rt Hon Norman
Arbuthnot, James Fox, Sir Marcus
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) Franks, Cecil
Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) Freeman, Roger
Ashby, David French, Douglas
Aspinwall, Jack Gale, Roger
Atkins, Robert Garel-Jones, Tristan
Baker, Rt Hon K.(Mole Valley) Gill, Christopher
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) Glyn, Dr Alan
Baldry, Tony Goodhart, Sir Philip
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Batiste, Spencer Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Bellingham, Henry Gorst, John
Bendall, Vivian Gow, Ian
Bevan, David Gilroy Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)
Biffen, Rt Hon John Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Blackburn, Dr John G. Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Gregory, Conal
Boscawen, Hon Robert Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Boswell, Tim Grist, Ian
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia Ground, Patrick
Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n) Grylls, Michael
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Bowis, John Hague, William
Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom)
Brandon-Bravo, Martin Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Brazier, Julian Hampson, Dr Keith
Browne, John (Winchester) Hanley, Jeremy
Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) Hannam, John
Buck, Sir Antony Hargreaves, A.(B'ham H'll Gr')
Budgen, Nicholas Harris, David
Burns, Simon Haselhurst, Alan
Burt, Alistair Hawkins, Christopher
Butcher, John Hayes, Jerry
Butler, Chris Hayward, Robert
Butterfill, John Heathcoat-Amory, David
Carlisle, John, (Luton N) Heddle, John
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)
Carrington, Matthew Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE)
Carttiss, Michael Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.
Cash, William Hill, James
Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda Hind, Kenneth
Channon, Rt Hon Paul Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)
Chapman, Sydney Holt, Richard
Chope, Christopher Hordern, Sir Peter
Churchill, Mr Howard, Michael
Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n) Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) Howarth, G.(Cannock & B'wd)
Clark, Sir W.(Croydon S) Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Clarke, Rt Hon K.(Rushcliffe) Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)
Conway, Derek Hughes, Robert G.(Harrow W)
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon) Hunter, Andrew
Couchman, James Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Cran, James Irvine, Michael
Davis, David (Boothferry) Irving, Charles
Day, Stephen Jack, Michael
Devlin, Tim Janman, Tim
Dicks, Terry Jessel, Toby
Dorrell, Stephen Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Dover, Den Jones, Robert B (Herts W)
Dunn, Bob Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Dykes, Hugh Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Eggar, Tim Key, Robert
Emery, Sir Peter Kilfedder, James
Evennett, David King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)
Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)
Fallon, Michael Kirkhope, Timothy
Favell, Tony Knapman, Roger
Knight, Greg (Derby North) Nicholls, Patrick
Knox, David Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Lamont, Rt Hon Norman Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
Lawrence, Ivan Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley
Lee, John (Pendle) Oppenheim, Phillip
Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) Paice, James
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark Patnick, Irvine
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) Patten, Rt Hon Chris (Bath)
Lightbown, David Patten, John (Oxford W)
Lilley, Peter Pawsey, James
Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant) Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Lord, Michael Porter, David (Waveney)
Luce, Rt Hon Richard Portillo, Michael
Macfarlane, Sir Neil Powell, William (Corby)
MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire) Price, Sir David
Maclean, David Rathbone, Tim
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick Redwood, John
Malins, Humfrey Renton, Tim
Mans, Keith Riddick, Graham
Marland, Paul Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas
Marlow, Tony Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S) Roe, Mrs Marion
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Rossi, Sir Hugh
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick Rost, Peter
Miller, Sir Hal Rowe, Andrew
Mills, lain Rumbold, Mrs Angela
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) Ryder, Richard
Moate, Roger Sackville, Hon Tom
Montgomery, Sir Fergus Sayeed, Jonathan
Moss, Malcolm Shaw, David (Dover)
Moynihan, Hon Colin Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Mudd, David Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')
Neale, Gerrard Shelton, Sir William
Nelson, Anthony Shephard, Mrs G.(Norfolk SW)
Newton, Rt Hon Tony Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Shersby, Michael Townsend, Cyril D.(B'heath)
Sims, Roger Tracey, Richard
Skeet, Sir Trevor Tredinnick, David
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) Trotter, Neville
Soames, Hon Nicholas Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Speller, Tony Viggers, Peter
Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W) Waddington, Rt Hon David
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) Walden, George
Squire, Robin Walker, Bill (T'side North)
Stanbrook, Ivor Waller, Gary
Steen, Anthony Ward, John
Stern, Michael Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Stevens, Lewis Warren, Kenneth
Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) Watts, John
Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) Wheeler, John
Stewart, Rt Hon Ian (Herts N) Whitney, Ray
Stradling Thomas, Sir John Widdecombe, Ann
Summerson, Hugo Wiggin, Jerry
Tapsell, Sir Peter Wilkinson, John
Taylor, Ian (Esher) Winterton, Mrs Ann
Taylor, John M (Solihull) Winterton, Nicholas
Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) Wolfson, Mark
Temple-Morris, Peter Wood, Timothy
Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret Yeo, Tim
Thompson, D.(Calder Valley) Young, Sir George (Acton)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) Younger, Rt Hon George
Thorne, Neil
Thornton, Malcolm Tellers for the Noes:
Thumham, Peter Mr. Alastair Goodlad and
Townend, John (Bridlington) Mr. Tony Durant.

"Schedule 11 (tribunals) shall be amended as follows.

  1. (2) In paragraph 2 (jurisdiction) the following paragraph shall be inserted at the end—
    1. "(c) paragraph 5 of Schedule 4A above,"
  2. (3) In"

Read a Second time.

Amendment made to the Lords amendment: (a), in line 5, leave out '5' and insert—[Mr. Chris Patten.]

Lords amendment No. 400, as amended, agreed to.

Lords amendments Nos. 401 to 424 agreed to.

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