HC Deb 22 May 1989 vol 153 c668
10. Mr. Cran

To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security by what amount spending by his Department has changed in real terms over the past five years for which figures are available.

Mr. Moore

By about £2.25 billion between 1983–84 and 1988–89, a real increase of 5 per cent. We plan to increase spending by a further £3.5 billion in the present year, bringing total expenditure to over £51 billion, nearly one third of public spending.

Mr. Cran

Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to condemn some elements of the professional poverty lobby in this country who continue to ignore the fact that everybody is better off than they were, as is evidenced by the fact that in the 15 years to 1985 average household incomes rose by 25 per cent. in real terms? In addition, the poor and the needy are now in receipt of 31 per cent of public spending this year, as against 25 per cent. in 1979.

Mr. Moore

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Perhaps unwisely, I tried in a recent speech, which attracted some attention, to take a period of time which is disconnected from any particular party's period of office to illustrate what has happened during the past 40 years, during which successive Governments have tried to improve the lot of the least well-off people in society. It does no service to them, or to those of us who try to help them, to distort the truth. We shall help people who are genuinely in need much more effectively through our current massive, and record, social security spending.

Mr. Heffer

I accept that the mass of the people are far better off than they were in the 1930s. We are not talking in terms of that type of poverty. Is it not clear that people who are at the lowest end of the income scale, who are struggling on benefits and on low wages, could have been a lot better off if the Government had not given great hand-outs in tax to their friends but had given that money to the people at the lower end of the scale?

Mr. Moore

The hon. Member genuinely cares about these issues. 1 am glad that he recognises that all are better off. His argument seems to be that those at the bottom could have been even better off as a result of different economic policies. It is extraordinary that the Opposition's argument is now about how to spend the results of Conservative economic success. It may be of interest to the hon. Member to know and consider that, 10 years ago, the top 5 per cent. paid 25 per cent. of gross income tax. Today they pay nearly 30 per cent. Their success has added to the success that allows me to spend the present record sums on those in need.