§ 2. Mr. McAvoyTo ask the Secretary of State for Employment if he will give details of which European Community countries have statutory wage provisions.
§ The Minister of State, Department of Employment (Mr. John Cope)Five EC countries—France, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal and Luxembourg—have a statutory national minimum wage on various bases. Ireland and the United Kingdom have statutory minimum rates of pay in certain industries.
§ Mr. McAvoyDoes the Minister agree that the. United Kingdom and Ireland are at the bottom of the league in terms of low pay for workers and protection for those workers? Should not the Government be trying to improve their record instead of undermining and trying to destroy the wages council structure?
§ Mr. CopeI rather agree with the report that Mrs. Barbara Castle produced when she was doing our job.
§ Mr. CopeShe said:
The introduction of a national minimum will add to labour costs. This could in turn increase the level of unemployment.We are doing much better in employment than all the other countries of the European Community put together, and that is what counts most.
§ Mr. RedwoodWill my right hon. Friend confirm that the Government will make strong representations against any increase in social regulation from Brussels which might damage employment-generating prospects and that they will be especially vigilant to preserve the flexibility of the English labour market?
§ Mr. NellistI wonder whether the Minister remembers the Chancellor of the Exchequer saying on television on 28 April:
half average earnings in this country, which is poor; that's poor—half average earnings.Given that the wages council structure pays on average £30 less than the Treasury definition of poverty, why is the Minister still proposing to abolish the wages councils?
§ Mr. CopeWe are consulting about the abolition of the wages councils and we shall consider the results of those consultations when we see them.
§ Mr. HillDoes my right hon. Friend agree that one of the great myths of the Community is that one can bring out statistics to prove that we should all abide by the same rules on salary and conditions of work and that almost anything that happens in the workplace can be regularised throughout the Community? Despite that myth, however, does he agree that each country has different living standards, different costs of living and different indices and that in the short term it is impossible to have a standard answer for every occasion when such foolish questions are asked of the Department of Employment?
§ Mr. CopeI agree that not only the statistics but the traditions of wage bargaining and similar arrangements are different in the different countries. They are not comparable one with another. However, all sorts of studies have shown that minimum wages tend to increase unemployment.
§ Mr. MeacherWhen the Secretary of State leapt to the defence of the Prime Minister's attack on the supposed European Socialist superstate, did he include in that the minimum wage provisions in the EEC? Is he aware that Britain is the only country in the EEC with neither a statutory minimum wage nor any statutory underpinning of collective bargaining, which amounts to the same thing? Do the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister not realise that the risk after 1992 is not of a Socialist superstate but of a capitalist jungle in which bad employers will compete, not by improving quality and price, but by driving down working conditions?
§ Mr. CopeI am surprised at some aspects of the hon. Gentleman's question. He spends a lot of time telling us that we are doing the wrong thing by introducing statutory controls and statutory arrangements into free collective bargaining, but he has just urged us to follow the example of European countries which have greater statutory controls on free collective bargaining.
§ Mr. SayeedAs those without jobs are the poorest in our society, should we not try to reduce the barriers to employment rather than increasing them?