§ Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark and Bermondsey)(by private notice: To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the future of the Rose theatre.
§ The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Nicholas Ridley)Archaeological work on the site of the Rose theatre has been in progress for some five months. This work has been financed by the developers, Imry Merchant Developers plc, under guidance from English Heritage and the Museum of London. It has become clear in the light of the most recent discoveries that the remains are of greater importance than was previously thought.
As a result, the developers and their architect have been working urgently on possible ways of ensuring that the excavated remains are properly preserved and displayed to the public. I invited them to a discussion this morning, together with English Heritage, which has advised us throughout.
I am very glad to tell the House that Imry has agreed to delay work on the theatre site for up to one month. This is to enable it and its architect to work with English Heritage and with us on the various options. The roof will go back over the site immediately so that the excavated remains are fully protected while these discussions continue.
English Heritage, assisted by the Government, will be contributing financially to the cost of the delay.
§ Mr. HughesI am grateful for and welcome the Secretary of State's statement. However, I should like to ask him about additional matters that still give cause for concern.
Is the Secretary of State in a position now to schedule the site, as he has been asked to do? Has he insisted that when the developers redesign the building they should avoid pile driving on the site, through the theatre itself, so that the theatre may be preserved intact? Has he agreed with the developers that from the time the building is redesigned and built there will be public access to the site of the Rose theatre so that people will continue to be able to see it?
As of this moment, the concerns are the guarding of the site, the activity on the immediately neighbouring site—which, I ask the Secretary of State to accept, is literally within inches of the edge of the Rose theatre—and the belief that the redesigned building must be agreeable not just to English Heritage but to the archaeologists of the Museum of London. I should be grateful if the right hon. Gentleman could give those assurances.
This morning, the people and the developers reached an agreement. I hope that the people, the developers and the Government will again be able in a month's time to reach an agreement that will preserve the Rose theatre intact for all to see.
§ Mr. RidleyIt would be inappropriate to take the question of scheduling any further as it is a matter for English Heritage. However, in the words that the hon. Gentleman used in his Adjournment debate:
A breathing space is needed for.….the planners in Southwark and English Heritage"—[Official Report, 9 May 1989; Vol. 152, c. 838.]22 That is exactly what we have provided. It would be inappropriate not to allow a period during which, we hope, a satisfactory result can be achieved.The breathing space also applies to the hon. Gentleman's two other points about pile driving and public access to the theatre. Obviously, those will be vital matters in the pending discussions, although I cannot forecast any decisions. I cannot give the hon. Gentleman any assurances about the outcome of the discussions. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said last week, we all hope that not only will the theatre be preserved—there was never any question about its preservation—but that it will be made permanently available to the public I cannot forecast whether that emerges from the time that the Government have bought to allow the options to be considered, although I hope that it will be the case.
§ Sir Bernard Braine (Castle Point)Although my right hon. Friend's intervention is to be warmly welcomed, is he aware that all who care for our English heritage have been gravely disturbed by what has happened in the case of the Rose theatre? Does he agree that a month is not much time in which to reach a satisfactory conclusion? During that time, will he bend his mind to devising some effective and lawful way of ensuring that when such ruins are uncovered during development work they can be properly preserved rather than hidden beneath a mountain of earth and concrete?
§ Mr. RidleyMy right hon. Friend is a little hard on the existing arrangements. During the past year, developers in various parts of the country have spent £14 million on facilitating archaeological investigations and the recording of what has been found. The short period that has been bought will not only save money but will concentrate minds on finding the best solution—although I cannot forecast what it may be—as quickly as possible. I am sure that it is possible for all that it is necessary to do to be clone within that time.
§ Mr. Mark Fisher (Stoke-on-Trent, Central)Although I welcome the one month allowed for a solution to be found, does the Secretary of State recognise that what he has told the House today does not constitute a solution but is merely a buying of time? The Under-Secretary said last week that the Government's policy on conservation was to bulldoze the site and cover it with hardcore and sand, which would preserve the site for future generations. I trust that that is no longer the Government's policy and that what they now mean by "conservation" is very different.
Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that people throughout the country find that the market forces of building yet another office block on the site to be wholly at odds with the preservation of a unique part of our theatrical culture, and that the two are incompatible? Will he visit the site in the company of myself and the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) so that he may see it and feel its historical importance? Is he aware that hon. Members on both sides of the House will say clearly to him that, although the delay of one month is welcome, the country expects and demands of the Government that the site be preserved, not for one month but for future generations?
§ Mr. RidleyThe hon. Gentleman is labouring under some misconceptions. The backfilling was never intended 23 to commit the site to below the basement; it was intended as a means of preserving it while plant and other necessary machinery moved across it. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that, because of the one-month delay, backfilling will not commence. I believe that there is dispute about it, but many archaeologists believe that the best way to preserve the site for the short and temporary period of construction is to immerse the remains in sand, which will be removed later.
The hon. Gentleman is not right to ascribe the situation to market forces. It might well be that the great prosperity that the Government have brought about has caused far more development and, therefore, far more exposure of sites; but that is not a charge to lay against economic success. The developers have behaved with impeccable propriety. They have delayed a long time already and are prepared to delay further—at great expense to themselves. They have co-operated entirely with the archaeologists and with my suggestion this morning.
I shall certainly visit the site, but, if I may, I shall choose my time and my company.
§ Mr. Toby Jessel (Twickenham)Does my right hon. Friend agree that the buying of time is extremely important and should be warmly and unreservedly welcomed by everyone? Will he acknowledge the significant part that has been played behind the scenes by our hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. Bowden)? Does my right hon. Friend agree that this important ruin stands a much better chance of being well protected for posterity if it is sheltered and shielded by the umbrella of a strong building and is not exposed to the elements, as is suggested by some thoughtless people?
§ Mr. RidleyI am grateful to my hon. Friend. I acknowledge the role that my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. Bowden) has played in this matter, and I am grateful to him. I strongly support what my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel) says about the fragility of the remains and the need to protect them from rain, frost and snow. I am certain that the best answer is to have a solid roof over them for their preservation.
§ Mr. Merlyn Rees (Morley and Leeds, South)I welcome the breathing space. What options will be considered during this time?
§ Mr. RidleyThat is not entirely a matter for me. It is a question for the developers and their architect. They must try different designs and different ways of treating the finished product, so to speak, so that access, marketing and presentation of the ruins can be well arranged, and work in conjuction with English Heritage, which will give the architectural advice they need. What the result of that will be, and whether it can be 100 per cent. successful, I do not know, but it may well cost more money than the present scheme. In that case, I suspect that the public may like to consider whether they want to contribute so that the scheme can be altered in such a way as to enable the site to be preserved.
I should make it clear that the Government's commitment finishes with this statement.
§ Mr. Michael Marshall (Arundel)My right hon. Friend will be aware of my interest as-a-member of The Theatres Trust. I associate myself with the representations that he 24 has received. I am sure that we all want to express our appreciation for the breathing space. The work done by my right hon. Friend, his ministerial colleagues, the Minister for the Arts and hon. Members on both sides of the House has been constructive and helped to point the way ahead. Finding an answer to an urgent national problem to preserve our heritage is a challenge to public and private sources.
§ Mr. RidleyI am grateful to my hon. Friend. I strongly agree with what he has said. There is an opportunity here. The move was necessary because greater knowledge of the site has been obtained literally in the past two or three days. Recent discoveries make the site more important than was previously thought. It is for that special reason that, on this one occasion, it seems right that the Government should finance the delay so that the forces that are determined to preserve the site have an opportunity to do so.
§ Mr. John Fraser (Norwood)Let us hope that the Secretary of State is not like Oscar Wilde, who believed that where archaeology begins art ends. The right hon. Gentleman's remark that his Department will not be involved in any further financial commitment suggests that he knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
§ Mr. RidleyI claim dissimilarity from Oscar Wilde in more than one respect. My statement pledges Government money for the delay which I have announced, but it goes no further than that.
§ Mr. Robert Banks (Harrogate)The House will welcome my right hon. Friend's statement. Does he agree that over the centuries the rich history of Southwark has been lost largely because of property development and changes in the pattern of society, but latterly especially by the policies of Southwark council which have almost obliterated the history of that area, not least by its intransigent reaction to the application to build a replica Globe theatre? Is it not an important discovery, and will my right hon. Friend give earnest consideration to classifying the remains of the Rose theatre as a national monument?
§ Mr. RidleyThe rich history of Southwark has been found rather than lost by the developers there at present. It is not right to condemn Southwark council, because I believe and hope that it will co-operate, as it will be asked, in the month's "window" that we now have to find a solution. I am sure that Southwark council will do that. The time has not yet come to consider the status of the monument or what might be done to preserve it. We must allow a scheme to be found first.
Mr. Eric S. Heifer (Liverpool, Walton)Is the Secretary of State aware that his first answer this afternoon was the best statement I have ever heard him make in the House? [Interruption.] Well, it was a bit better than most of his statements. However, the right hon. Gentleman cannot now decide that the Government have no responsibility for the site. Surely, if the site is part of our English heritage, which obviously it is, the Secretary of State as an artist—and a very fine artist in painting—must recognise that we have to preserve in every possible way the arts of the nation. Therefore, the preservation of a fine, original theatre-is vital in the interests of the cultural development of the nation for our children. I ask the right hon. 25 Gentleman to reconsider his reply about the Government's role in preserving the site and the financial aid that they must give in order to do that.
§ Mr. RidleyIf today's statement was the best statement the hon. Gentleman has heard me make, he cannot have been here very much. I shall make sure that the hon. Gentleman is given an oportunity to subscribe to any fund which might be set up for this purpose.
§ Mr. Anthony Beaumont-Dark (Birmingham, Selly Oak)We are talking about the theatre as if it were a building, and it is not; we are talking about the site as if it were ruins, and it is not—it is footings. Is not the life of the theatre composed of actors? Is not the living theatre more important? If every time the footings of some building that experts tell us was a theatre, a brothel or anything else had to be preserved, London would still be composed of Roman ruins. Are we not concerned with the living and the living theatre? If we have £10 million or £20 million to spend, let us spend it on the living theatre and not on the footings of something that looks like a disused mine.
§ Mr. RidleyThis is not art, but archaeology, which is a different but equally important science. If we were to deny archaeology, we would deny Stonehenge. It is not a living theatre, but at least it is a monument which my hon. Friend would respect, although it is even older than the Rose theatre.
§ Mr. Clive Soley (Hammersmith)The House will welcome the Secretary of State's late, reluctant intervention, but it will also be deeply worried that he has said that he no longer intends to be involved in this matter. The House has ways of bringing him before it to ensure that he remains involved.
What other country would be prepared to bury the heritage that we link to Shakespeare's name—a name which is famous throughout the world and throughout time? The only answer that the Secretary of State has is two of sand and one of cement.
If the Secretary of State had followed the spirit of the 1987 report of the Select Committee on the Environment, he would not have been forced to intervene as a result of the all-night activity of actors, the constituency Member for Parliament and members of the parliamentary Labour party; he would have initiated the action himself. Will he do so in future?
§ Mr. RidleyThe hon. Gentleman does not seem to realise that it was only in the past few days that English Heritage advised that the quality of these remains was far greater than it originally thought. That has changed the position. It is right to respond to my advisers at English Heritage on a matter of this sort. I did not say that the Department would not be involved. The Under-Secretary of State and I will certainly remain involved. I said that the statement did not go beyond the financial commitment to the delay. That is all.
I would never take on the hon. Gentleman as a builder's labourer. If he did one of cement and two of sand, he would be wasting cement on an unprecedented scale.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Today is for private Members' motions, and we must move on.