§ 9. Mr. LawrenceTo ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what criteria Bophuthatswana would need to satisfy in order to be recognised by Her Majesty's Government as an independent nation state.
§ Mrs. ChalkerThe same criteria that have been followed by successive British Governments and which are based on international law. Other factors, including relevant United Nations resolutions, are also taken into account.
§ Mr. LawrenceWhy does my right hon. Friend not agree that, in international law, Bophuthatswana does fulfil the criteria laid down for recognition? It has a definable territory, a permanent population, a Government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other states. Does not my right hon. Friend's policy have the rather ludicrous effect of driving Bophuthatswana to stay inside the sphere of influence of South Africa and thus strengthen apartheid, while the Government's policy is to woo South Africa's neighbours away from South Africa's sphere of influence and weaken apartheid? Cannot my right hon. Friend see the total inconsistency of the Government's policy?
§ Mrs. ChalkerMy hon. and learned Friend should remember that Bophuthatswana is a homeland which was set up by the South African Government within South 853 Africa. We bear no ill will to those who live there. We are seeking to get rid of apartheid throughout South Africa. I take up my hon. and learned Friend on what he said about the criteria for recognition. He subtly altered the wording of the third criterion, which involves independence in external relations. That is one of our criteria. These criteria have been used by successive British Governments and are recognised by international law. I know that my hon. and learned Friend has been researching Judge Friedman's views and I understand that, under the terms of the Montevideo convention, they may be different. Our prime cause must be to help South Africa get rid of apartheid throughout the territories, including Bophuthatswana. Until there is a democratic system in South Africa, we cannot consider change.
§ Dr. ReidI share the Minister's aim of getting rid of apartheid from South Africa and express my gratitude to her for having the courage to express it, but is it not hypocritical of the Government to set out the criteria in international law that they deem acceptable for independent sovereign nation-statehood while, at the same time, openly and blatantly to support American intervention in, and infringement of, the independent nation-statehood of sovereign Nicaragua?
§ Mrs. ChalkerI can see no connection between Bophuthatswana and Nicaragua. It is absolutely right that any country that wishes to look after its own affairs must show that it can do so. Bophuthatswana is not an independent country; it remains a homeland of South Africa.
§ Mr. BaldryDoes my right hon. Friend agree that Bophuthatswana is a creation of South Africa for the convenience of South Africa in South Africa and has no right to independence, either de jure or de facto, in international law, and that to try to pretend otherwise is a fraud?
§ Mrs. ChalkerWe have been over this ground many times, and my hon. Friend is absolutely right. These seven territories are in no way independent of the rest of South Africa. They do not fulfil the criteria for recognition as an independent country and I do not see any likelihood of their doing so. I hope that when there is a democratic system in South Africa as a whole, in which all people can have a say, the situation may be different for the people of Bophuthatswana—but it will not be so earlier.
§ Mr. MorganWill the right hon. Lady confirm that it is not a criterion for recognition as an independent country that it should offer free trips to select groups from this House or any other part of the country, although that is a well-established tradition of the South African Government? The South African ambassador was in Cardiff on Monday trying to bribe Welsh rugby players to go to South Africa. Will she tell the ambassador that, only days after three members of his staff were expelled for good reason from this country for involvement in terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland, it was wholly improper for him to come to Cardiff to a reception at the Holiday Inn, as if it was business as usual with South Africa? It very much is not.
§ Mrs. ChalkerNeither the South African ambassador in London nor the South African Government are in any doubt about what we think about the last issue the hon. Gentleman mentioned.
It will always remain up to individual Members to decide what invitations they accept. Some may choose to go to South Africa and others to Nicaragua—that is an hon. Member's responsibility.