§ 12. Mr. SkinnerTo ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what discussions he has had with his colleagues in the European Council of Ministers concerning fraud within the European Community.
§ Mr. MacGregorI have regularly raised in the Agriculture Council the problem of fraud within the European Community, most recently in the November 1988 and February 1989 Councils.
§ Mr. SkinnerDid the Minister tell the people in charge of the corruption department in the Common Market that the British taxpayer is fed up to the back teeth with having to dole out something approaching £6 billion last year for the Mafia to make money out of olive trees that do not even exist? Is it not a scandal that, when every family in Britain is paying £16 a week into the common agricultural policy, £5 a week of that is going on fraud? The money should go into the pockets of the farmworkers, who have just been offered a miserly 7 per cent.
§ Mr. MacGregorBy definition, we do not know the exact scale of money involved in fraud in the European Community, although various estimates have been made. This is, however, a historic occasion: for once I can agree with part of what the hon. Gentleman has said. I think that it is the first time that that has ever happened.
§ Mr. SkinnerCan I have that in writing?
§ Mr. MacGregorIt will be in writing. I entirely agree that wherever fraud exists in the Community—and it almost certainly exists on too large a scale in the CAP—it is important for us to take all possible steps to eradicate it. The British Government have taken the lead in arguing for that, and in putting forward action programmes to deal with the problem.
§ Mr. GillDoes my right hon. Friend agree that, contrary to the belief of the Opposition parties—who would have us think that more inspectors and auditors would prevent fraud—the answer is to reform the system? That is what we are now doing. The reduction of beef intervention to 200,000 tonnes is a step in the right direction, although the complete answer is the obviation of beef intervention altogether.
§ Mr. MacGregorI certainly agree that changes in various policies and schemes in the CAP will go a considerable way towards reducing opportunities for fraud. As well as the proposal that my hon. Friend has mentioned, we are strongly urging the elimination of monetary compensation amounts by 1992, which would also be very helpful.
I think, however, that it is also necessary to have the apparatus to check, control and monitor what is going on in the system, and that is why we supported the setting up of the anti-fraud unit in the Commission.
§ Mr. HardyWhile welcoming the Minister's view of fraud in other member states, may I ask him to comment on the situation in this country, where a person involved in grain storage confessed in a Central Television programme to the most outrageous practices? Many people expected a prosecution to follow and still cannot understand why confessions in such public conditions should not have resulted in a prosecution.
§ Mr. MacGregorI shall have to look into that case. I have not seen the television programme to which the hon. Gentleman referred. I assure him that we follow up all cases of suspected fraud. Successful action was taken between 1984 and 1988 in 41 cases of fraud under the CAP; 19 were prosecuted and the others were settled out of court. Of the 19, there were nine prison sentences and fines of up to £40,000. I also assure the hon. Gentleman that the question of identifying checks on CAP products, particularly with a view to tracing fraud, is now a high priority in the current Customs and Excise management planning programme. We are anxious to ensure that we carry out the proper checks and follow them up in this country.