HC Deb 24 July 1989 vol 157 cc765-825

Lords amendments further considered.

5.32 pm
Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West)

For the reasons put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) and me already, I beg to move, That further consideration of the Lords amendments be now adjourned.

Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 34 (Dilatory motion in abuse of rules of the House):—

The House divided: Ayes 186, Noes 293.

Division No. 316] [5.31 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane Dunnachie, Jimmy
Adams, Allen (Paisley N) Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth
Allen, Graham Eadie, Alexander
Anderson, Donald Eastham, Ken
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E)
Armstrong, Hilary Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy Fatchett, Derek
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Ashton, Joe Fisher, Mark
Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) Flannery, Martin
Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich) Flynn, Paul
Barron, Kevin Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Battle, John Foster, Derek
Beith, A. J. Fraser, John
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Galloway, George
Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish) Garrett, John (Norwich South)
Bermingham, Gerald Garrett, Ted (Wallsend)
Bidwell, Sydney Godman, Dr Norman A.
Blair, Tony Golding, Mrs Llin
Boateng, Paul Gordon, Mildred
Boyes, Roland Gould, Bryan
Bradley, Keith Graham, Thomas
Bray, Dr Jeremy Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E) Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Buckley, George J. Grocott, Bruce
Caborn, Richard Hardy, Peter
Callaghan, Jim Harman, Ms Harriet
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley) Haynes, Frank
Canavan, Dennis Healey, Rt Hon Denis
Cartwright, John Heffer, Eric S.
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) Henderson, Doug
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) Hinchliffe, David
Clelland, David Hoey, Ms Kate (Vauxhall)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)
Cohen, Harry Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Coleman, Donald Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)
Cook, Frank (Stockton N) Hoyle, Doug
Cook, Robin (Livingston) Hughes, John (Coventry NE)
Corbett, Robin Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Corbyn, Jeremy Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Cousins, Jim Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Cox, Tom Illsley, Eric
Crowther, Stan Ingram, Adam
Cryer, Bob Janner, Greville
Cummings, John Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Cunliffe, Lawrence Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W)
Darling, Alistair Kennedy, Charles
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) Lamond, James
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l) Leighton, Ron
Dewar, Donald Litherland, Robert
Dixon, Don Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Dobson, Frank Lofthouse, Geoffrey
Doran, Frank McAllion, John
Duffy, A. E. P. McAvoy, Thomas
McCartney, Ian Rowlands, Ted
Macdonald, Calum A. Ruddock, Joan
McKelvey, William Salmond, Alex
McLeish, Henry Sedgemore, Brian
Maclennan, Robert Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
McWilliam, John Short, Clare
Madden, Max Skinner, Dennis
Mahon, Mrs Alice Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)
Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) Smith, Rt Hon J. (Monk'ds E)
Meacher, Michael Smith, J. P. (Vale of Glam)
Meale, Alan Soley, Clive
Michael, Alun Spearing, Nigel
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) Steel, Rt Hon David
Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) Steinberg, Gerry
Morgan, Rhodri Stott, Roger
Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) Straw, Jack
Mowlam, Marjorie Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Mullin, Chris Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Murphy, Paul Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Nellist, Dave Vaz, Keith
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon Wall, Pat
O'Brien, William Walley, Joan
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Patchett, Terry Wareing, Robert N.
Pike, Peter L. Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)
Prescott, John Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)
Primarolo, Dawn Williams, Rt Hon Alan
Quin, Ms Joyce Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)
Radice, Giles Wilson, Brian
Randall, Stuart Winnick, David
Redmond, Martin Wise, Mrs Audrey
Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn Worthington, Tony
Richardson, Jo Young, David (Bolton SE)
Roberts, Allan (Bootle)
Rogers, Allan Tellers for the Ayes:
Rooker, Jeff Mr. Allen McKay and Mr. Ray Powell.
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
NOES
Adley, Robert Buck, Sir Antony
Aitken, Jonathan Budgen, Nicholas
Alexander, Richard Burns, Simon
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Burt, Alistair
Allason, Rupert Butler, Chris
Amos, Alan Butterfill, John
Arbuthnot, James Carlisle, John, (Luton N)
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Ashby, David Carrington, Matthew
Atkins, Robert Carttiss, Michael
Atkinson, David Cash, William
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) Chapman, Sydney
Baldry, Tony Chope, Christopher
Batiste, Spencer Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)
Bellingham, Henry Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)
Bendall, Vivian Conway, Derek
Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)
Benyon, W. Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Bevan, David Gilroy Cope, Rt Hon John
Biffen, Rt Hon John Couchman, James
Blackburn, Dr John G. Cran, James
Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter Currie, Mrs Edwina
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Curry, David
Boscawen, Hon Robert Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)
Boswell, Tim Davis, David (Boothferry)
Bottomley, Peter Day, Stephen
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia Devlin, Tim
Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n) Dickens, Geoffrey
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) Dorrell, Stephen
Bowis, John Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes Dover, Den
Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard Dunn, Bob
Brandon-Bravo, Martin Durant, Tony
Brazier, Julian Dykes, Hugh
Bright, Graham Emery, Sir Peter
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's) Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas
Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) Fallon, Michael
Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick Favell, Tony
Fenner, Dame Peggy Lord, Michael
Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey Luce, Rt Hon Richard
Fishburn, John Dudley Lyell, Sir Nicholas
Fookes, Dame Janet McCrindle, Robert
Forman, Nigel MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) McLoughlin, Patrick
Forth, Eric McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael
Fowler, Rt Hon Norman McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Fox, Sir Marcus Madel, David
Franks, Cecil Major, Rt Hon John
Freeman, Roger Malins, Humfrey
French, Douglas Maples, John
Gale, Roger Marlow, Tony
Gardiner, George Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Garel-Jones, Tristan Marshall, Michael (Arundel)
Gill, Christopher Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Glyn, Dr Alan Maude, Hon Francis
Goodlad, Alastair Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Gorman, Mrs Teresa Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Gorst, John Mellor, David
Gow, Ian Miller, Sir Hal
Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW) Mills, Iain
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Greenway, John (Ryedale) Mitchell, Sir David
Gregory, Conal Moate, Roger
Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E') Molyneaux, Rt Hon James
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) Monro, Sir Hector
Ground, Patrick Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn Moore, Rt Hon John
Hague, William Morris, M (N'hampton S)
Hanley, Jeremy Morrison, Sir Charles
Hannam, John Morrison, Rt Hon P (Chester)
Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr') Moynihan, Hon Colin
Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) Mudd, David
Harris, David Neale, Gerrard
Haselhurst, Alan Needham, Richard
Hayes, Jerry Nelson, Anthony
Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney Neubert, Michael
Heddle, John Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) Nicholls, Patrick
Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE) Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
Hill, James Norris, Steve
Hind, Kenneth Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley
Hordern, Sir Peter Page, Richard
Howard, Michael Paice, James
Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil
Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) Patnick, Irvine
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) Patten, Rt Hon Chris (Bath)
Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) Patten, John (Oxford W)
Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) Pawsey, James
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Hunter, Andrew Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Irvine, Michael Portillo, Michael
Irving, Charles Powell, William (Corby)
Jack, Michael Price, Sir David
Janman, Tim Raffan, Keith
Jessel, Toby Raison, Rt Hon Timothy
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) Rathbone, Tim
Jones, Robert B (Herts W) Redwood, John
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael Renton, Tim
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine Rhodes James, Robert
Key, Robert Riddick, Graham
King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) Ridsdale, Sir Julian
Kirkhope, Timothy Roe, Mrs Marion
Knapman, Roger Rossi, Sir Hugh
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) Rost, Peter
Knowles, Michael Rowe, Andrew
Lamont, Rt Hon Norman Sackville, Hon Tom
Lang, Ian Sainsbury, Hon Tim
Latham, Michael Sayeed, Jonathan
Lawrence, Ivan Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas
Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel Shaw, David (Dover)
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')
Lightbown, David Shelton, Sir William
Lilley, Peter Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)
Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant) Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) Shersby, Michael
Skeet, Sir Trevor Tredinnick, David
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) Trippier, David
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) Trotter, Neville
Speed, Keith Twinn, Dr Ian
Speller, Tony Viggers, Peter
Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W) Waddington, Rt Hon David
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) Wakeham, Rt Hon John
Squire, Robin Waldegrave, Hon William
Stanbrook, Ivor Walden, George
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John Walker, Bill (T'side North)
Stern, Michael Waller, Gary
Stevens, Lewis Walters, Sir Dennis
Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) Warren, Kenneth
Stokes, Sir John Wells, Bowen
Sumberg, David Wheeler, John
Summerson, Hugo Whitney, Ray
Tapsell, Sir Peter Widdecombe, Ann
Taylor, Ian (Esher) Wiggin, Jerry
Taylor, John M (Solihull) Wilkinson, John
Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) Wolfson, Mark
Temple-Morris, Peter Wood, Timothy
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) Yeo, Tim
Thorne, Neil Young, Sir George (Acton)
Thornton, Malcolm
Thurnham, Peter Tellers for the Noes:
Townend, John (Bridlington) Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory and Mr. David Maclean.
Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Tracey, Richard

Question accordingly negatived.

Mr. Tony Benn (Chesterfield)

May I go back to the point that I raised with you about hybridity, Mr. Speaker? I appreciate that what the Secretary of State said to the House—I do not know if he is still the Secretary of State—has no legislative authority and, having consulted the Table, I understand that only when the wording of the Bill was changed would the question of hybridity arise. I have had the opportunity of having a quick look at the Bill. I do not believe that you, Mr. Speaker, could possibly answer now the question that I am putting because there may be enough in what I am proposing to submit to persuade you that you should seek advice before you give a ruling against what I am saying.

5.45 pm

Clause 62 states: all property, rights and liabilities to which each Area Board is entitled or subject immediately before that date shall become by virtue of this subsection property, rights and liabilities of a company which, in relation to that Board, is nominated for the purposes of this subsection by the Secretary of State. However, the Secretary of State has said that that will not be the case any more. In effect, he has said that certain financial liabilities in respect of the Magnox stations will remain in the public domain.

Clearly, those are only words from a Secretary of State and have no legislative authority. However, had they been part of the long title of the Bill—the right hon. Gentleman has told us that the Bill will be interpreted in that way—you, Mr. Speaker, would have been bound to consider whether we were getting a mixed arrrangement for the supply of electricity which would affect private and public companies and consumers separately.

In view of the sensitivity of matters relating to hybridity, which affect the House and the protection of private rights and so on, I believe that you should not reject my submission out of hand until you have had the opportunity of considering it. Therefore, I submit that you, Mr. Speaker, in your judgment, should not allow the Lords amendments to be proceeded with until you have had the chance of taking that advice.

Mr. Speaker

I will certainly consider carefully what the right hon. Gentleman has said, for, as he correctly stated, no legislative change is made to the Bill as a result of what the Secretary of State has said. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman submits his reasons for what he has just said to me in writing so that I may consider them carefully.

Now we move on to Lords amendment No. 158 with which—

Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South)

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I do not think that I can say any more, and I am not prepared to rule on hybridity in the middle of Lords amendments.

Mr. Cryer

I simply want to ask you, Mr. Speaker, at what stage does the House have the opportunity to refer such a Bill, if it is indeed hybrid, to the Examiners of the Bill, who, as you know, consist of officials from both Houses, to check on the question of hybridity? Is it following a statement by yourself when you make a decision, Mr. Speaker, that a formal motion is moved, and is that motion subject to a vote like the vote that we have just had, in which the Government can use their vast majority to tear the procedures of this place apart and thus remove the rights which protect ordinary citizens, as they have just done?

Mr. Speaker

That matter is hypothetical until I have seen the submission to be made to me on this matter.

Mr. Bruce Grocott (The Wrekin)

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I repeat I cannot rule on hybridity in the middle of Lords amendments.

Mr. Grocott

I am sure that you will recall, Mr. Speaker, as we all do, the tremendous seriousness that was attached to the issue of hybridity during the 1970s on crucial matters of legislation which, as far as I can recall, included a whole day's debate on whether a piece of legislation was a hybrid measure. We are all dealing with information that has come to light only recently and the information that I have received seems of similar import to the discussions that took place in the 1970s. Therefore, can we have your assurance that, when the ruling is made, the opportunity will arise, so far as it is in your power, Mr. Speaker, to determine it, for us to discuss it in the same way and with the same seriousness with which it was discussed in the 1970s?

Mr. Speaker

I must first consider the submission that is put to me. Of course I do not control the timing of debates in the House, but I shall certainly bear in mind very strongly what the hon. Member has said.

Mr. Benn

The point is that the passage of the Lords amendments today could lead to an attempt to get Royal Assent for the Bill immediately. Clearly, when the House has dealt with the Lords amendments, the Bill will have completed its passage through both Houses. [Interruption.] I do not know whether it depends on how the House rules on the matter. However, the point is that the matter of hybridity would have to be settled before the Bill was cleared for Royal Assent. Once the Bill has gone for Royal Assent, it becomes an Act of Parliament. There is, therefore, an urgency about the matter. When you come to it, Mr. Speaker, you would have to interpose your judgment between the final stages in either House and the Royal Assent. You have given me an opportunity to put in such evidence as I can, which will concern clauses 62 and 63 on the generating board.

Mr. Speaker

The right hon. Gentleman should get in that submission as quickly as he possibly can.

Mr. Tony Blair (Sedgefield)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Will you confirm that it will be necessary to have a ruling on the question of hybridity before the Lords amendments are passed, since otherwise the opportunity is lost? The matter is therefore urgent.

Mr. Speaker

I understand that.

  1. Schedule 12
      2. cc770-811
    1. NUCLEAR LIABILITIES: FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE 23,817 words, 2 divisions
  2. Clause 1
      3. cc811-25
    1. THE DIRECTOR GENERAL OF ELECTRICITY SUPPLY 7,939 words, 1 division
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