§ 32. Mr. Teddy TaylorTo ask the Lord President of the Council if he will take steps to ensure that European documents are considered by the House of Commons before a common position has been arrived at by the Council of Ministers; and if he will make a statement.
§ Mr. WakehamIn their response to the second special report from the House of Commons Select Committee on European Legislation, Session 1985–86, the Government 710 reaffirmed that they would endeavour to bring forward documents for debate at the earliest appropriate opportunity. That continues to be our objective. In the case of Community legislation subject to the co-operation procedure, it is the Government's aim that parliamentary scrutiny should be completed before a common position is agreed by the Council of Ministers.
§ Mr. TaylorAs many of the laws that used to be made in the House of Commons are now made by the Council of Ministers, and as we can discuss its decisions for only one and a half hours after 10 o'clock at night, does the Lord President agree that this makes nonsense of democracy and deprives the public of the knowledge of what is going on? Does he also agree that it is an insult to all that Parliament stands for if the House sits from 10 pm to 11.30 pm to discuss matters that have already been decided in Brussels?
§ Mr. WakehamI agree that the way in which the House has dealt with European matters in recent months has left something to be desired, and I am taking steps to try to improve it. However, I do not accept my hon. Friend's contention that some of these matters must be discussed after 10 pm, but I am afraid that they will continue to have to be so. My discussions show that it might be possible substantially to improve the way in which our debates are held.
§ Mr. SpearingIs the Leader of the House aware that those who are concerned about this matter are grateful to him for referring to the Select Committee's report of two years ago and that we look forward to the Government implementing the intention that they stated at that time? Does he agree that it is becoming a matter of considerable importance that a common position is reached? A common position is, in effect, the last and combined word—perhaps on a majority vote—of the Council of Ministers, prior to possible amendment by the European Parliament at Strasbourg. Although debates may have to take place after 10 pm, the Leader of the House might care to bear in mind that debates at earlier times on major matters would be more appropriate.
§ Mr. WakehamI recognise the strength of what the hon. Gentleman says. He knows the pressures that we are under and that I am trying to do my best to improve some of the apparent weaknesses.
§ Mr. DykesDoes not the Lord President of the Council agree that all parts of the House are anxious to get this right, including those who are keen on our membership of the European Community? Does he agree that Jacques Delors' famous 80 per cent. utterance was taken out of context, and that he was advocating greater involvement by the national parliaments? I appreciate the difficulties that my right hon. Friend faces and I am not criticising him, but would it not be a good idea to consider a combination of more all-day European Supply days such as the one next Thursday, longer debates—late at night, if necessary—the sending of more business upstairs to Committee whenever a particular document makes that relevant and also, once a month, having a longer Friday afternoon session so that European enthusiasts, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor), myself and others can take part?
§ Mr. WakehamI agree with my hon. Friend that most of his suggestions will form part of the solution , though I think that the House would he reluctant to depart from the view that it should rise at 2.30 on Fridays. However, his other suggestions are more helpful.
§ Mr. MurphyOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It arises out of Welsh questions and the Secretary of State for Wales' answer to the question that he was asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd). [HON. MEMBERS: "Where is the Secretary of State?"] I see that the bird has flown. He said that there would he no time for a statement on the valleys initiative during Question Time and that he would place a copy of his speech in the Commons Library. Has he asked you for permission to make a statement to the House on the initiative or has he, as he did last week when he refused to make a statement to the House on the Welsh business rate, copped out once again? Is it right that the Secretary of State should hide behind English Tory Members of Parliament, who consistently seem to have their names at the front of the Order Paper when there are Welsh questions, thus denying Welsh Members the right to put their point of view on behalf of their constituents?
§ Mr. SpeakerI have no knowledge of a statement. Certainly one was not offered today. It may be offered tomorrow, but I do not know.
§ Mr. WigleyFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not totally unacceptable that when only 13 questions were answered on Welsh matters, four of them should have been asked by hon. Members with English constituencies and that most of the questions were answered by a Member representing an English constituency? We have only one chance a month to cover a whole range of problems that are relevant to the people of Wales. When will you be in a position to defend the interests of Welsh Members in this Chamber?
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman ought to know, and I ought not to have to keep repeating it, that this is a United Kingdom Parliament. He reserves the right to take part in discussions on other matters. The only Member who was present in the Chamber today who sought to catch my eye and was not called—and I deeply regret it —was the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths). However, the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) was called twice, so I do not think that he has any cause for complaint.
§ Mr. Peter WalkerFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. First, I should very much welcome any extension of Welsh Question Time, because that would be such an advantage to the Government side of the House. Secondly, I shall be making a speech tomorrow in Wales in which I shall review in detail the massive progress that has been made under the valleys initiative, and I hope that every hon. Member and everybody in Wales will read it.
§ Mr. DickensFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was not called at Question Time, nor did I stand to ask a question. However, as a matter of principle it annoys hon. Members to think that Welsh Members should adopt such an attitude, because millions of pounds of English taxpayers' money are directed towards Wales. We have given Wales one of the best Secretaries of State 712 in the Cabinet. It ill behoves Welsh Members to suggest that this is an English Parliament. We are entitled to look at how our money is being spent in Wales.
Mr. Alan WilliamsOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. There is a very serious point involved here. You have always said that you think it important that this House should be given information first. You will remember that on the occasion of the first valleys initiative statement we had to raise many points with you in order to persuade the right hon. Gentleman to come here 24 hours after he had made a statement in Wales. During Question Time today —and this involves your position, Mr. Speaker—the Secretary of State said that he could not deal adequately with the question on the Order Paper in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) because there was not enough time in a parliamentary answer. Yet he then stood up and said that he would be making a statement in the valleys tomorrow.
One might point out that this morning he issued to the press a 20-page document which he still has not come to the House to answer for. Is it not a fact that if the right hon. Gentleman was dissatisfied with the time that would be available by way of a normal parliamentary answer, he could have opted—as any Minister, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, could—to take that question at the end of Question Time and then face proper intensive questions, or he could have made a statement?
§ Mr. Peter WalkerFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understand the feelings of the right hon. Gentleman, who has been deposed from his position as shadow Secretary of State for Wales. The document that I issued this morning on urban aid has always been issued in that form by all Governments. Secondly, the speech that I shall be making tomorrow will give in great detail the marvellous progress made under the valleys initiative.
§ Mr. Peter WalkerThe right hon. Gentleman says "Not here". When he was shadow Secretary of State and I challenged him to have this debate in the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, he said, "We soon will." The Labour party has never chosen it as a subject.
§ Mr. Win Griffithsrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerI will allow one more point of order, as the hon. Member was not called during Question Time.
§ Mr. Win GriffithsOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Further to the statement by the Secretary of State for Wales about the speech he is going to make, may I ask whether he can tell us if that speech will be included in the expenses of the Pontypridd by-election?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I do not think we can profitably continue Question Time.
§ Mr. DobsonOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. On a number of occasions you have said that it is your belief that any initiatives being announced by the Government by way of statement are best announced to the House. If the Secretary of State for Wales is indeed going to say anything new tomorrow, surely he should be saying it here. If his excuse is that he will not be saying anything new, I hope that the newspapers will note that he will just be churning out the same old stuff yet again. If he proposes to say something new, I hope that, as the guardian of the 713 interests of all parts of the House, you, Mr. Speaker, will make representations to try to make sure that he does it in the House rather than just making a speech or holding a press conference, even if it is in Wales.
§ Mr. SpeakerI shall look carefully at the speech of the Secretary of State.