§ Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that, some weeks ago, the hon. Member for Thanet, South (Mr. Aitken) raised the issue of the six Conservative Members who have been identified as a security risk by the Security Service. You will recall also that I have raised this matter repeatedly—at column 866 on 24 January, column 1041 on 25 January, columns 1185 and 1204 on 26 January and column 122 on 30 January. You have given me rulings on this matter several times. The first time you advised me to go to the Leader of the House. He told me that he could not answer questions on matters of security. I accept the answer that he gave me. You then ruled on a further point of order which 1 raised with you, and said that I should take the matter to the Procedure Committee. I went to the Procedure Committee, and I have to advise you of its reply. It said:
It was the unanimous view of the Procedure Committee that in no way could consideration of this, or any matters concerned with security, fall under the normal interpretation of the terms of reference of our Committee.You will understand, Mr. Speaker, that my case has always been that if Members of Parliament are not fit to be Ministers because they cannot be trusted with classified material, which was the effect of the statement made by the hon. Member for Thanet, South, members of Select Committees who may have been subject to the same scrutiny should not have access to classified information. I have identified in the Chamber at least two Committees to which classified material is made available. Indeed, this afternoon, in the Public Accounts Committee, we shall once again be examining classified material. May I put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that we need a ruling whereby this matter can be opened up?
As you will understand, I am not satisfied if some Members of this House whom the security services do not regard as trustworthy are to be given access to classified material. We know that at the moment there are six such Members. We know not who they are; we know only that they are Conservatives, and in saying so, I am not scoring political points—[interruption.] It was the hon. Member for Thanet, South who said that these six Conservative Members had been identified by the security services.
All I want is a ruling whereby we can move forward. Will you please consider this matter, Mr. Speaker, and tell me to which Committee I can go next to have it examined further?
§ Mr. SpeakerI do not think I can help the hon. Member. I have given him two suggestions, but, as he well knows, it is not my role to indulge in giving advice as to tactics. I can only suggest that he might now seek to win time for a private Member's motion, which might enable him to develop the matter further. I cannot give a ruling on something over which I have no authority.
§ Mr. Campbell-SavoursYou suggest, Mr. Speaker, that I should seek to win time for a private Member's motion in a ballot of potentially 640 Members, to deal with an urgent matter concerning Committees of this House. However, today, and over the next few weeks, classifies: material will be examined. Surely it is wrong for the House to have to wait for some form of adjudication on these 22 matters. That material may fall into the hands of Members whom the security services have identified as unreliable. This is a matter for the House of Commons, not for the Government, and I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to give us a ruling as to which Committee we can go to next.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Member must pursue this with the Leader of the House. He cannot pursue it with me; it is not a matter for me. He has taken it to the Select Committee, which has said that it is unable to deal with it. I cannot deal with it either.
§ Mr. Campbell-SavoursMr. Speaker, you could advise me—
§ Mr. SpeakerI cannot, and there is no point in the hon. Gentleman's pursuing the matter. I have no authority to do it.
§ Mr. Campbell-SavoursIn your reply, Mr. Speaker, you referred to the need for me to go to the Leader of the House. The Leader of the House has said:
The hon. Gentleman knows the answer that he will get. I am not prepared to comment on matters of security, but, as the hon. Gentleman will be well aware, it is ultimately for the House to decide on membership of Select Committees."—[Official Report, 26 January 1989; Vol. 145, c. 1185.]The House cannot decide upon this matter because the House does not have information as to who these six Conservative Members of Parliament are—nor, indeed, does the Committee of Selection.We cannot just allow this matter to fall by the wayside. It is important. We are talking about classified material. We are talking about information relating to defence contracts, perhaps even contracts such as the one on which you, Mr. Speaker, had to rule a year and a half ago—the Zircon project. How do we know that those six Conservative Members of Parliament do not have access to that information? We know that they could not get it as Ministers, because, according to the hon. Member for Thanet, South, their appointments were blocked by the security services. I am trying to find out—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member is taking up private Members' time. This matter arose in a speech made by the hon. Member for Thanet, South, (Mr. Aitken). I have no idea whether the hon. Member was right or wrong. What he said was his responsibility not mine. I have no authority to do as the hon. Gentleman wishes me to do. He must find ways of pursuing this matter other than through the Chair.
§ Mr. Campbell-SavoursThere is another way that I can pursue the matter, but the problem is that because I do not have a name and therefore cannot approach one of the Members, perhaps privately, to make a complaint to the Select Committee on Privileges, I am not in a position to press the matter. You could advise the Select Committee on Privileges to examine this matter in a general sense without any Member having to lodge a complaint.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman knows the rules about that. If he maintains that it is a matter of privilege, he should raise it in the appropriate manner, which is to write to me about it. Before he does so, however, I have to say to him that I cannot be held responsible for what hon. Members may allege in the Chamber, provided that what they say is in order. The hon. Gentleman is being very unfair to his colleagues by 23 taking time out of private business.[Interruption.] There may come a day when he finds himself in a similar position.
§ Mr. Campbell-SavoursYou say that the hon. Member for Thanet, South made a statement that perhaps was unsubstantiated. He said:
Just in case Labour Members think that these kinds of mistakes are totally confined to their side of the House and to Labour Prime Ministers, they may perhaps be interested to know that I was told … reliably".—[Official Report, 17 January 1989; Vol. 145 c. 190.]The hon. Gentleman said "reliably," so it was not a question of conjecture. He made a specific allegation.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Very frequently hon. Members allege that they have reliable information and very frequently it turns out to be highly unreliable.
§ Mr. Campbell-Savoursrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I do not intend to hear any more about this matter.
§ Mr. Campbell-Savoursrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerI have already told the hon. Gentleman that I do not intend to hear any more about this matter.
§ Mr. Campbell-Savoursrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerI have already dealt with the matter.
§ Mr. Campbell-SavoursI am dealing with classified material.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I ask the hon. Gentleman to resume his seat.
§ Mr. Campbell-SavoursI am dealing with classified material.
§ Mr. SpeakerAgain I ask the hon. Gentleman to resume his seat.
§ Mr. Campbell-Savoursrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerIf the hon. Gentleman will not resume his seat, I shall have to ask him to leave the Chamber for the rest of this day's sitting.
§ Mr. Campbell-Savoursrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I order the hon. Member to leave the House for the remainder of this day's sitting.
§ Mr. Campbell-SavoursAm I being asked to leave the Chamber?
§ Mr. SpeakerYes.
§ Mr. Campbell-SavoursI shall be back.
§ The hon. Member then withdrew.