HC Deb 06 February 1989 vol 146 cc636-7
9. Mrs. Gorman

To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security what measures are being taken to cut down on social security fraud.

Mr. Moore

Since this Government took office, we have nearly doubled the number of staff on anit-fraud work to over 3,300. Cheats are nothing more than spongers on the rest of us and my Department has stepped up its drive against claimants who cheat. Resources are being used more efficiently. Investigations into high-risk areas are producing good results. More people are being found out. As a result, this year we shall produce the best savings ever, around £250 million—up from £100 million five years ago, but still only one eighth of what the Inland Revenue recovered last year through its compliance work.

Mrs. Gorman

Will my right hon. Friend accept congratulations on that not just from Conservative Members, but from people who genuinely claim social security and those on modest incomes who pay taxes towards the people who are cheating the system? Will he assure the House that, when people are found to be defrauding the system, they will be prosecuted and that the widest possible publicity is given to that to deter others from taking that line?

Mr. Moore

Of course I accept entirely what my hon. Friend says. No hon. Member can endorse cheating. However, I should stress that. this Government are pursuing this problem sensibly, unlike the Labour Government who believed in a high prosecution policy, did not collect figures for fraud and saw no reason to account for or demonstrate value for money. Last year, 7,231 people were prosecuted whereas during the last full year of the Labour Government's term of office, 21,913 people were prosecuted. That is a sign of the less-than-humane pursuit of a very serious problem.

Mr. Redmond

Does the Minister agree that if claimants at the Department of Social Security are not informed of their due rights, that can also be classed as fraud? Will he restate to DSS officers throughout the country that they are there to help, advise and guide people who make rightful claims and that the duty rests with the DHS to assist those people or they will lose benefit, which would be fraud by the state?

Mr. Moore

There is a duty on the individual and I also fully accept that there is a duty on my offices and staff. In the "Business of Service" report which I am seeking to implement, I strongly endorse not necessarily the hon. Gentleman's words, but ways in which I encourage my staff to treat and serve their customers so that their entitlement to benefit is fully and well understood.

Mr. David Nicholson

While the House welcomes my right hon. Friend's administrative measures to reduce fraud, is he aware that there is a widespread welcome in the country for the legislative measures he is taking—in particular, the Social Security Bill, which is proceeding upstairs? It is unacceptable that in large areas of the country where there is work, people are able successively to refuse jobs and continue living on benefit.

Mr. Moore

My hon. Friend is entirely right. I read with continued interest, and sometimes with amazement, the Hansard reports of the proceedings of my right hon. and hon. Friends and of the Opposition in the Committee on the Social Security Bill and I cannot begin to understand how an Opposition can be so far removed from the basic attitudes, beliefs and views held by the majority of our people—with whom my hon. Friend is so closely connected.