§ Mr. Gerald Kaufman (Manchester Gorton)(by private notice): To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign arid Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on Government policy following the arrest in Paris of three members of the Ulster Defence Association in the company of a South African diplomat on a charge of illegally possessing weapons.
§ The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Sir Geoffrey Howe)We have been informed by the French authorities of the arrest in Paris of three United Kingdom citizens and one American on 21 April on charges of arms trafficking, receipt of stolen goods, and criminal conspiracy of a terrorist nature. Consular access is being sought to the three United Kingdom citizens.
The Government are seriously concerned at the implications of the charges brought by the French authorities. The matter is sub judice and it is extremely important not to prejudice the French legal proceedings in any way. The South African ambassador in London was today summoned to the Foreign Office to be told of the grave view taken by the British Government of the implications of the charges and of the alleged involvement of a member of the South African embassy in Paris. The House will wish to be assured that since the initial reports of thefts in Northern Ireland became known my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has been subjecting security arrangements at Shorts and other establishments in Northern Ireland to a most thorough review.
§ Mr. KaufmanI congratulate all involved in the successful operation in Paris.
Does not that operation reveal an alarming state of affairs—a conspiracy whereby South Africa has supplied so-called Loyalists with lethal weapons for use in terrorist actions in Ulster in quest of access to information, replicas and models of British missiles? In view of a succession of successful burglaries at Shorts, can the right hon. and learned Gentleman guarantee the security of the Starstreak missile in particular, as well as Javelin and Blowpipe?
Is it not a fact that weapons supplied by South Africa as part of this bloodstained deal have already been responsible for the deaths of innocent people in Northern Ireland and that grenades supplied by South Africa have been thrown at the police in Northern Ireland?
In the knowledge of the fact that South Africans have supplied arms for murder in Northern Ireland, did the Forein Secretary raise this act of aggression when he met the South African Foreign Minister last month? Did the Prime Minister do so when she met that same Minister this month? How can the Prime Minister have told a South African newspaper:
I consistently have made clear the total opposition and abhorrence of the British Government for terrorist actionswhen she must have known that the South Africans have been responsible for making possible terrorist action inside the United Kingdom?Today, all hon. Members have received a letter from the Foreign Secretary declaring:
our message is getting through where it matters most—inside South Africa".663 Is this conspiracy the response to that message? Is this conspiracy the response to the tact and persuasion that the Prime Minister says she uses with South Africa?Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman consult other European Community Foreign Ministers urgently to obtain united action, involving the expulsion of all South African intelligence agents and arms purchasers posing as diplomats? Will he call back the South African ambassador in London and tell him to withdraw all members of his staff with duties comparable to those of Mr. Storm?
Will the Government now cut off to South Africa all supplies of equipment, spare parts and vehicles which can be used for military purposes? Is it not time that Britain acted in line with world opinion and imposed sanctions on South Africa's incorrigible regime?
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweI can begin by thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his congratulations to those concerned with bringing this matter to the state it has so far reached. I find it difficult to agree with several of the other points that he raised.
The right hon. Gentleman will surely acknowledge that the success of this operation thus far underlines the extent to which the Government have been, are and remain totally committed to enforcement of the United Nations arms embargo to South Africa. That is why I said that we take an extremely serious view of the facts so far disclosed in this matter. I emphasise "the facts so far disclosed" because it is by a long way too early to come to any conclusions about the implications of this matter, let alone some of the earlier ones to which the right hon. Gentleman referred.
The right hon. Gentleman is quite right to emphasise the need for the closest possible attention to security in relation to manufacturing processes in Northern Ireland. I have said that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is closely concerned with that.
The right hon. Gentleman will understand that we are well aware of the nature of some of the agencies and authorities that are involved in a matter of this kind. That is all the more reason for working in a manner which is most effective to secure the removal of apartheid from South Africa. It is our continuing and firm belief that the present policy of the Government is best calculated to achieve that end.
§ Sir Ian Lloyd (Havant)Will my right hon. and learned Friend accept that I regret every bit as much as he does the rather deplorable events which have occurred in Paris during the past 48 hours? If, as has been suggested in the House today, South African weapons have given rise to terrorist action in Ulster, that is a profoundly regrettable consequence. However, before my right hon. and learned Friend reaches a final conclusion, will he bear in mind the fact that many of us, including many of my constituents, take just as grave a view of the way in which SWAPO and the ANC obtain SAM-7 and Stinger-type missiles so that the South Africans are compelled by the international arms embargo to resort to deplorable methods to obtain arms themselves?
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweI do not think that I should join my hon. Friend in discussing SWAPO's access to weapons in different circumstances, save to underline the extent to 664 which we deplore the use of violence as a means of promoting political objectives in southern Africa as in our own country. However, I am glad to have his endorsement of the view that I have expressed that the implications of the facts so far disclosed could be extremely serious, and the fact that he has endorsed that is significant.
§ Mr. Menzies Campbell (Fife, North-East)Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that the military importance of the incident we are discussing is demonstrated by the fact that the South African Government were apparently willing to pay £1 million for the model of the missile which was sought to be obtained in Paris? He has also told the House that a review of the security has been taking place. If that is the case, why did the Minister of State for the Armed Forces say in response to a written question from me:
Security of all Ministry of Defence establishments and bases is kept under constant review as a matter of course. I have no plans at present to commission a specific investigation into security at territorial army bases in Northern Ireland."—[Official Report, 20 April 1989; Vol 151, c. 278.]
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweOn the hon. and learned Gentleman's last point, I cannot comment on the precise formulation of the matter to which he has referred, but I can assure him that since the initial reports of security risks and thefts came to light, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has set in hand a very close review of security at such premises. I cannot confirm or deny the specific figure that the hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned, but it goes without saying that the South African authorities are prepared to go to considerable lengths to outwit the United Nations arms embargo. That is why we apply ourselves so energetically to upholding its enforcement.
§ Mr. Ivor Stanbrook (Orpington)Is there any evidence that South African weapons have been used in terrorist incidents in Northern Ireland, as the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) claimed?
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweI cannot offer the House any concluded judgment on that today, but obviously if it were firmly established it would add to the gravity of a serious situation.
§ Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South)Will the Secretary of State shed further light on the incident, as we have only press speculation? I do not want to speculate as to whether any court proceedings are developing but is there any truth in the suggestion by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) that the UDA was involved? Furthermore, on a day when the people of south Belfast have suffered another terrorist attack on a police station and after a weekend when women have been murdered, is it not rather hypocritical to spend time attacking South Africa when the ANC and the IRA have been collaborating in the attack on British people in Northern Ireland?
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweOn the hon. Gentleman's first point, it is not possible to be more specific about a number of matters that have been raised for discussion by the facts so far reported, not only because we do not wish to say or do anything that may interfere with the conduct of proceedings in France—which is important—but in addition, one has to take care about the revelation of 665 sensitive material in answer to any further questions. The inescapable fact is that any involvement on either side of the tragic conflict in Northern Ireland involving the supply of weapons that may add to the hazard to life and limb there is to be deplored, and any fresh aspect of it raises serious questions.
§ Mr. Derek Conway (Shrewsbury and Atcham)My right hon. and learned Friend will have the support of the whole House in deprecating the stealing of weapons. Bearing in mind that the Government wisely operate an arms embargo policy against South Africa, has my right hon. and learned Friend or any of his ministerial colleagues received any evidence from the Opposition about the illegal supply of arms as was suggested by the shadow Foreign Secretary? I have heard of no such evidence being put forward, yet the fact that we have an official arms embargo is rarely recognised by Opposition Members.
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweI can assure my hon. Friend that any suggestion of the supply of weapons in breach of the arms embargo is always investigated with the utmost thoroughness. I hope that he will accept, as does the rest of the House, that the facts I have so far disclosed today suggest that that thoroughness is not in vain.
§ Mr. Merlyn Rees (Morley and Leeds, South)The supply of arms to Northern Ireland is one of the major reasons why the tragic events of the past 20 years have lasted so long. In a country in which relatively few people are involved in violence, the arrival of those weapons, whether from Colonel Gaddafi or money given to the United States, and whether they go to Republican or Loyalist organisations, does not matter much. What matters is that the arms are getting through.
Will the Foreign Secretary ensure that we receive accurate information as to whether it is true, as is reported in the newspapers, that the UDA—a working class group —has received arms from South Africa and that now the new organisation, which I understand is a middle class group that has arisen in the past year or two, also has arms contacts in South Africa? One way of stopping the supply of arms is to know more about the people involved. I had never heard of the movement until a few weeks ago. It is an insidious development, and I hope that we can have more information.
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweThe right hon. Gentleman is correct to remind us of the central fact, which is that the availability of any weapons on either side of the troubled Province of Northern Ireland is a matter that we must do everything possible to prevent. One cannot be sure where they will end up or what will happen to them. That is why we are making such an enormous effort to try to achieve that.
The facts and evidence underlying the matters I have announced today have not yet been fully explored, but it is entirely right that at the right time and in the right way every possible use should be made of them to identify those responsible for the acquisition, financing and importation of those weapons. Every action should be taken thereafter to demonstrate how seriously we view the matter and how determined we are to stamp it out.
§ Mr. Robert Adley (Christchurch)Will my right hon. and learned Friend accept that most impartial people would regard these events, if they are proved to be true, as 666 every bit as reprehensible as the relationship that appears to exist between the IRA and Libya? If the charges are well founded and those concerned are found guilty, will my right hon. and learned Friend consider our diplomatic relationships with South Africa in the light of the decision taken some time ago about our diplomatic relationships with Libya?
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweI understand why my hon. Friend is concerned about the possible gravity of some of the implications of the facts so far known and I appreciate that concern. However, we must acknowledge that the shape and nature of diplomatic relations must be considered in the light of many different considerations, one of which is the extent to which we are able to continue representing to the Government of another country the case we feel strongly needs to be taken into account.
§ Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)When will the Foreign Secretary recognise that South Africa is willing to do the maximum damage to Britain's interest, as is Libya, in supporting the other side of terrorism in Northern Ireland? Does he recall the case in Coventry just five years ago when the South African authorities double-crossed the British Government and the judicial authorities and the people who were bailed did not return to Britain? Is it not time we started to recognise the immense danger to this country of South Africa's terrorist activities, including acts of terrorism carried out in various parts of Europe? When he sees the ambassador, I hope that he will tell him of the strength of feeling in the House of Commons.
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweIt is clear from what has already been said on both sides of the House that there is grave concern at the implications of the facts so far known in this matter. I shall take care to ensure that the South African Government are in no doubt about that. The precise extent to which this or that action should be equated with the action of any other Government has to be considered in the light of all the circumstances. We should leave every Government in no doubt that the promotion of the supply of weapons for violent, terrorist purposes within this Kingdom is a matter of the utmost seriousness.
§ Mr. Robert Hughes (Aberdeen, North)Will the Foreign Secretary take this opportunity to refute as totally unfounded and disgraceful suggestions that the African National Congress has been collaborating with the IRA to murder British citizens? Does he recollect that the South African Government boasted that they would not send back from South Africa people charged in this country with breaching the oil embargo who had been allowed to return under the gravest assurances given by the South African embassy? Now that South Africa has become involved in affairs in Northern Ireland, would it not make more sense, rather than simply calling in the ambassador to tell him how displeased he is, if the Foreign Secretary insisted that the military attaché department in Trafalgar Square was closed and the South African ambassador was sent back to South Africa as a mark of our intention to do something other than simply mouth platitudes?
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweThe hon. Gentleman will know that. all allegations of links between the ANC and the IRA and any other terrorist organisations are thoroughly investigated. It is made clear to the ANC, as to other organisations, that it is entitled to remain in this country so long as it complies with our laws.
667 The hon. Gentleman will recall that the case which came before the Coventry courts was last dealt with in a statement on 23 October 1984 by my right hon. and learned Friend, now the Secretary of State for Scotland, when he was Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
The hon. Gentleman will recall that in September 1985 Community countries agreed to recall military attachés accredited to South Africa and to refuse to grant accreditation to new South African military attaches. British attachés were withdrawn from South Africa in 1985, the South African armed forces attaché left London in July 1987 and the air and naval attaché left in December 1987.
§ Mr. Jeff Rooker (Birmingham, Perry Barr)In the last year for which we have figures, 1986–87, this country was the world's second largest arms supplier behind the United States and ahead of the Soviet bloc. Is it not evident that our factories and manufacturing plants involved in that trade, which amounts to about £6 billion a year in exports, are bound to be prey to Governments such as the South African Government who exist only because of their use of weapons? Will the Foreign Secretary have words with his Cabinet colleagues to ensure that, notwithstanding the policy to continue with a massive trade in weapons, at least the security of the factories and the people working in them is greatly enhanced?
§ Sir Geoffrey HoweThe hon. Gentleman is right to emphasise the importance, in any country supplying weapons on any scale, of the tightest possible control over the licensing and export of any such weapons and the places in which they are stored and manufactured. As I have already said, that is a matter of which my right hon. Friends are well aware.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. This is an extension of Question Time, and we must move on as we have a heavy day ahead of us.