Points of Order (Hansard, 7 April 1989)

§ Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As you will be aware, points of order were raised at the end of business questions yesterday. I have two related points of order which are strictly procedural. In reply to a question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Ewing), the Leader of the House said: nothing new has emerged in recent times."—[Official Report, 6 April 1989; Vol. 150, c. 364.] He was referring, of course, to Sir Leon Brittan's broadcast and matters relating to the Westland affair three years ago.
As I understand it, the submission of oral questions or questions for written answer that relate to historic matters is sometimes not possible. I do not share the view of some that the procedures of the House are arcane, traditional and obstructive. On the contrary, I believe that, if properly followed, they can be used to call the Executive to account, although only on reasonably current matters.
May I confirm with you, Mr. Speaker, that it would be possible for the Leader of the House, if he so wished, to specify where a record of the approval of two gentlemen in the Prime Minister's Office was recorded—in debates at the time or in reports of Select Committees? I have tabled a written question—written question No. 139—and although I shall not push the right hon. Gentleman on it now, may I confirm with you, Mr. Speaker, that it would be open for him to reply to it now if he so wished? If he does not, no doubt he will answer the question fully in writing on Monday, with his customary courtesy.
My second point of order is related to my first. The position is now related to what Sir Leon Brittan and others may already have said in trailers to the broadcast. I understand, however, that there is to be a further broadcast tonight, and either Sir Leon, or others concerned in the matter, may say other things which. prima facie, are in conflict with, or additional to, the evidence given to the Select Committee on Defence or speeches or other documents that are considered official. In that case, Mr. Speaker, may I confirm that the scope for the submission of questions to the Table or to you yourself in written form is related to any apparent discrepancy that may arise and that they will therefore be in order and those matters will cease to be historic?
That is the position as I understand it, but, in view of the intense interest in this matter on both sides of the House and among the media, and as it might be thought that the procedures of the House are obstructive rather than permissive, I thought that it might be helpful to get your ruling on these matters.

§ Mr. Speaker
I thank the hon. Gentleman for putting his point of order in that way. His first question was not really to me but to the Leader of the House. I am sure that the Leader of the House will answer in whatever way he feels appropriate.
As to the second question, the programme has yet to be seen, so the matter is hypothetical at the moment. I have noted what the hon. Member has said. I have mentioned to the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) that I have a constituency surgery tonight, so I 471 shall not be able to watch the programme, but personally I will ensure that it is carefully watched by those who advise me.

§ Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. As the Leader of the House is present, it might be helpful if he would respond now; it would save time at 11 o'clock. Yesterday, he categorically told my right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Leeds, South (Mr. Rees): If the right hon. Gentleman is interested in names he should look at the Select Committee's report".—[Official Report, 6 April 1989; Vol. 150, c. 359] Yesterday, he was specifically asked twice whether he would say where that information was available. In view of the broadcast which we all know is to take place tonight and which we have seen trailed, it is clear that there will be great speculation over the weekend. Perhaps the Leader of the House could defuse it for the Prime Minister and avoid aggravation for her next week, which I am sure is his greatest wish, by giving us the information today, instead of forcing us to take further action next week.
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will think about the matter between now and 11 o'clock and consult his notes. He said yesterday that he had read all the proceedings to refresh his memory. As his memory is probably the freshest of all, perhaps he will look at them again between now and 11 o'clock and give us clarification at 11 o'clock.

§ Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. What is not hypothetical is that the most senior appointee that this country has in Europe, the Vice-President of the Commission, has already gone on record many times on television in the past two days saying that two of the most intimate and powerful civil servants of the Prime Minister have indulged in something that they should not have done. They gave approval to something which they knew was wrong. It does the House of Commons no credit whatsoever for the Leader of the House to sit in the House relaxed and laughing at the serious points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing).
I sat and listened, as did some of my colleagues, to Lord Armstrong of Ilminster on that memorable occasion when he gave evidence to the Select Committee on Defence. Yesterday, the Leader of the House said to my right hon. Friend for Morley and Leeds, South (Mr. Rees) at column 359, to myself at column 361 of Hansard, and later to my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Ewing) that nothing had changed. The Armstrong inquiry was based on differences in understanding between No. 10 and the Department of Trade and Industry. What the Leader of the House says is a travesty——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. This is a matter for debate, not a point of order. I cannot be held responsible for what the Leader of the House said. I have heard nothing out of order so far. The hon. Gentleman is now seeking to pre-empt a programme which some of us are looking forward to seeing this evening. It would be more appropriate for him to see that programme and then, if there is anything in his point of order, pursue it again on Monday, but not today.

§ Mr. Dalyell
The key statement has been made and trailed many times. We are expected to believe that four 472 highly trained civil servants—Mr. Mogg, Miss Bowe, Mr. Ingham and Mr. Powell—had a double misunderstanding on the same subject. That is what the Select Committee was asked to believe. Some hon. Members have gone to the trouble of checking with members of that Select Committee. That is exactly the impression that they had. Lord Armstrong should be——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. This is a private Members' day. It is not appropriate for the hon. Member to raise these matters now because there is nothing that I can do about them. They are matters of concern that the hon. Gentleman has with the Government. They are not points of order for the Chair.

§ Mr. Dalyell
rose——

§ Mr. Speaker
What is the point of order for me?

§ Mr. Dalyell
The point of order is that the reputation of the House of Commons is at stake. If the Leader of the House thinks that it is all right for senior civil servants to leak a Law Officer's letter—because that was the implication——

§ Mr. Speaker
That is not a point of order.

§ Mr. Dalyell
rose——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. If the hon. Member had a private Member's Bill, he would be concerned if points of order of this kind were being raised during private Members' time. This is not an appropriate moment to raise it. If it is a point of order which I can answer, I will gladly do so, but I have heard nothing so far that has the remotest concern for me as Speaker.

§ Mr. Dalyell
If I had a private Member's Bill, whether I were an Opposition Member or a Conservative Member, I should be concerned that the leaders of my party and the leaders of the British Government thought that it was all right for Mr. Powell and Mr. Ingham, on their own admission, to leak a Law Officer's——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman is kicking in his own goal. It is not a point of order for me. He keeps on saying that it is a matter for the Government. It is a matter for the Government, not for me. It is not a point of order.

§ Mr. Robert Adley (Christchurch)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I would like clarification. Can you confirm that it is your ruling that you are not responsible for the contents of Ministers' speeches in this House? In view of what you said a few moments ago, will you further confirm that points of order cannot be based on what is heard on television? If television programmes are to be the basis, not for debate but for points of order, we shall be here for ever.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. It is possible that new facts could emerge. None of us has seen the programme yet.

§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. One thing is pretty certain, and that is that you would do well, even though you have your surgery tonight, to get the video working and make sure that the programme is recorded. It is clear that one matter of order that concerns you is that you need to be abreast 473 of events. In this ever-changing period, relating in particular to the long-standing Westland affair, it would be as well for you to be fully aware of what is happening.
If it so happens that two non-elected people such as Bernard Ingham and Charles Powell are involved and now, it is said, an ex-Member of this House, Leon Brittan, who is on £97,000 a year and in relative safety, economically speaking, has made statements which he seemingly was unable to make when he was a Member of the House, it means that the matter is changing. In view of the fact that you must occupy the Chair for a considerable time, it is necessary for you to be able to conduct the proceedings in such a way as to be able to take account of all matters as they affect Opposition and Conservative Back Benchers.
The Leader of the House is here; he has made himself available. I suggest that he should make himself even more available and go to the Dispatch Box and tell us what he intends to do. It will be a problem for you, Mr. Speaker, as this sad, sorry story unfolds over the next few days and months.
One thing is certain. My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) stands taller today than he did when he raised this matter against a background of hostility from many parts of the House. As the story unfolds, and as Leon Brittan starts to reveal the truth, Mr. Speaker, you may have to take account of many points of order arising out of what is happening against this sorry background.

§ Mr. Speaker
I fear that that may well be so, and I shall prepare myself. I am not very good at operating the video, so if the hon. Gentleman could act as a back-up for me, that would be helpful.

§ Mr. Dalyell
rose——

§ Mr. Speaker
No further point of order can arise on this matter.

§ Mr. Dalyell
rose——

§ Mr. Speaker
Please sit down. We have all admired the hon. Gentleman's perseverance, but I do not think that it is a matter for today. We must now move on——

§ Mr. Dalyell
rose

§ Mr. Speaker
It is not a matter for today.

§ Mr. Dalyell
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.

§ Mr. Speaker
I cannot add further to what I have said, but if it is a new point of order, I shall have to hear it.

§ Mr. Dalyell
What is at stake is the great traditions of the British civil servants. It is absolutely corrupt that two civil servants positively approved a leak and disclosure of a Law Officer's letter. It is absolutely and totally corrupt and wrong, yet here they remain——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. This is a speech that the hon. Gentleman might have an opportunity of making at another time, but not on a point of order.

§ Mr. Dalyell
rose——

§ Mr. Speaker
No, I am not hearing any more today——

§ Mr. Dalyell
rose——

§ Mr. Speaker
No. I must ask the hon. Gentleman not to prejudice his chances on Monday——

§ Mr. Dalyell
There is nothing more important than the integrity of this House.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I order the hon. Gentleman to resume his seat.

§ Mr. Dalyell
There is nothing more important——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I warn the hon. Member that I shall have to take further action, and I would be reluctant to do that.