Disabled Persons (Northern Ireland) Bill

HC Deb 07 April 1989 vol 150 cc520-33

As amended, considered

Order for Third Reading read.

12.51 pm

Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

If you had been in the Chair earlier, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you might have understood what was going through my mind during the humorous speech of the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow). When casting light on the subject of the preceding Bill, the hon. Gentleman encouraged us all to remain until later this afternoon to meet another Minister. My mind went back to a political gathering. It was late in the evening and the speaker was roaring on. The chairman was present, along with one other person. The speaker said, "Mr. Chairman, I am deeply indebted to my friend for remaining to the end", to which the response was "Friend my eye, I am the next speaker."

I sat through the previous debate on the important subject of parking as it affects London, in particular, but also the nation as a whole. I appreciated the Minister's reference to the upsurge in casualties on the roads in Northern Ireland. I speak today out of concern for both disabled people and those who care for them. Let me put on record my indebtedness to right hon. and hon. Members throughout the House who have supported me, and pay tribute to the helpful guidance I received from the Minister and the Department when I sought to discuss with them the implications of the Disabled Persons Services, Consultation and Representation Act 1986 as it affected Northern Ireland.

It was mooted at that time, both in Committee and in the other place, that the measure should be extended to Northern Ireland, but, because of the administrative arrangements for health and social services in Northern Ireland, that was set aside. Nevertheless, as I was successful in the ballot for private Member's Bills, I decided to introduce this Bill which I hope will become an Act during the Session. It will give the people of Northern Ireland the same disability rights as those enjoyed in the rest of the United Kingdom. The people of Northern Ireland avidly await the implementation of the Bill's provisions. Councils throughout the Province support the Bill. The Law Society for Northern Ireland also supports it, as do the various organisations that help the disabled. I pay tribute to Mencap and the Act Now campaign who have helped me to frame the Bill.

When I drafted the Bill I sought to make it apply to Northern Ireland in the same way as the 1986 Act applies to the rest of the United Kingdom. That meant that it had to contain provisions relating to local authorities and housing. The 1986 Act places an onus on local authorities. I did not proceed with the drafting of a Bill along those lines because there had been insufficient time for consultation with everybody in Northern Ireland. Discussions subsequently took place and the Department encouraged me to table amendments to bring this Bill into line with the 1986 Act. The changes place an onus on local councils and on the Department of the Environment—through the Northern Ireland Housing Executive—to deal with disabled people in the same way as they are dealt with in the rest of Great Britain.

A few minor amendments were made in Committee. We originally used the words "a mental health commission." However, there is only one mental health commission in Northern Ireland. I am not a supporter of quangos and I do not want to encourage the Department to create another one. Therefore I was happy to change the wording to "the" mental health commission. Muckamore Abbey is under the control of the Eastern board although it is within the area of the Northern board. That was another consequential amendment.

I urge the House to pass the Bill. We are three years behind the parent Bill that was skilfully piloted through the House by the hon. Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke). I am happy that he is a sponsor of my Bill.

The Bill has financial implications. As I am a Unionist, I do not want for Northern Ireland what is not available to the rest of the United Kingdom. I was encouraged by the Minister's positive response in Committee. I know that he will use his best efforts to encourage the various boards and agencies to implement the Act in Northern Ireland. When budgeting for Northern Ireland we have to recognise that a sign of a caring society and of a caring nation is its care for the disabled. If there is a financial surplus, I hope that part of it will be released for this purpose. It ought not to be stored up for other purposes. It should be used to help those who are in real need.

The main purpose of the Bill is to improve arrangements for advocacy and representation. People in Northern Ireland look forward to having a legal right of advocacy so that those who cannot argue the case for themselves and who do not know their way round the system may have somebody to speak for them. The Bill will certainly do away with the present system under which a child may ultimately have to appeal against the health and social services board that is responsible for him or her. Quite apart from financial resources, the Bill gives those children the right to be represented by an advocate who will look after their interests.

In Committee I was asked about the respective ratios of disabled people in Northern Ireland and in Great Britain. We have had difficulty in finding up-to-date and accurate statistics, but we can make comparisons nevertheless. The incidence of Down's syndrome, for example, is one in 600 live births in Northern Ireland as compared with one in 1,000 live births in the United Kingdom as a whole. I am never convinced that such statistics are accurate. How can we tell the proportion if we do not know the total incidence? Those are the figures that are used, however, and they show a disproportionate need in Northern Ireland.

People have asked what causes the difference. In Committee the Minister drew attention to morbidity and to the problem of larger families and of mothers of advanced years bearing children as possible contributory factors.

Another factor has been mentioned. I am not sure that it is a cause of the problem and we should draw attention to it if only to challenge it. The scare stories that some have put around excite fear in people rather than seeking to deal with the problem. Dr. Sheehan from Dublin, who conducted a study of the incidence of Down's disease in Dundalk and other southern areas, claimed that Sellafield was a cause. Professor Lowry challenged that assumption in a later report. Perhaps I am partial because Professor Lowry and I were colleagues at school, but I found his study more objective than the study that claimed Sellafield as a cause. He cast doubt on Dr. Sheehan's theory and showed that the evidence was inconclusive.

We must still ask why the ratio is higher in Northern Ireland and hope to discover a means to eliminate the disease. The Down's Association has said that the new education system in Northern Ireland benefits the children as it makes a better use of their talents. The association expresses a worry that is shared by others—that when the children reach the age of 19 and have to leave school, provision for them is not adequate. I welcome some of the moves made to improve that situation. At least the Bill puts responsibility on departments and boards to be more accurate in their assessments and provide the necessary support.

The number of discharges from hospital has been mentioned. It was interesting to discover that although there has been a decline in the number of beds in mental hospitals recently, there has also been an increase in the number of admissions. Therefore, the Bill is timely. I trust that the support of right hon. and hon. Members will speed it on its way to the other place, ultimately to become an Act for the well-being of our people in Northern Ireland.

11.4 pm

Ms. Jo Richardson (Barking)

I congratulate the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) on extending the provisions of the existing legislation to Northern Ireland. He and everybody else in Northern Ireland consider that it is long overdue.

One of my principal concerns is about the problems of carers, as distinct from the obvious problems that affect disabled people. I was pleased to see that clause 8 is about the duty of the board to take into account the abilities of carers. From my own experience and from my Front-Bench responsibilities, which I am not exercising now, I know that when we consider the problems that many women face, we do not always look at people's ability to look after someone within their family. They do the job willingly and lovingly, and would not necessarily want anybody to take it from them, but we do not sufficiently recognise that they need great support. As hon. Members will know, the overwhelming majority of carers are women. They range across the age spectrum. They could be children, young women, middle-aged women who have had to give up their jobs, or pensioners looking after another pensioner or even a younger person. It is generally recognised that it is their role to look after somebody, simply because he or she happens to be a member of the same family. That causes some resentment and problems. If society, the authorities, agencies and, in this case, the board recognise that people in that position need maximum support, the hon. Gentleman will earn the thanks of all those people.

I often say that the most invisible group of people in our society is carers. They are behind closed doors. They often cannot go out. They are trapped into the caring responsibility which they must undertake. As legislators, it is our job to ensure that doors are opened to them, to enable them not only to continue their work, which is so valuable and which saves the community so much money, but to participate in society.

Clause 8 specifically relates to carers. It is an excellent way of ensuring that a carer is able to do the job. Many people have that job thrust on them. It is not just a matter of respite care, which is essential to people who have the responsibility thrust on them day and night—very often a 24-hour job. Respite care is very much a hit-and-miss affair, depending on the resources of the local authority. It is also a matter of training. It is extraordinary that, given the caring responsibilities of those who undertake this work, it is rare that they get any kind of help and advice about how to cope with the person for whom they are caring.

I know of many women—and, indeed, of one or two men—who have to lift another person in their family in and out of a bath or on and off the toilet—that is quite common—but they have no idea of how to do so properly and how to save themselves getting a bad back. One women of my acquaintance has a permanently damaged back because she has a heavy husband. She has managed to teach herself with no help from outside how to lift her husband in and out of the bath. I hope that the board will consider such matters when assessing the abilities of carers.

Finally, I hope that when the Bill becomes law—I hope that it will receive its Third Reading today without anybody saying anything against it because there can be nothing against it—the position of carers will form a central feature of the developments that the hon. Member for Belfast, South has so widely put forward.

1.10 pm

Mr. Alfred Morris (Manchester, Wythenshawe)

This is an important occasion for the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth). I congratulate him both on his good fortune in the ballot for private Members' Bills and on his choice of Bill. He has made the case for his Bill upstairs in Committee and here in the House today with both eloquence and obvious sincerity. Speaking from the Opposition Front Bench, I express our warm support for the Bill's purposes and our desire to see it fully and speedily implemented.

As the House knows, the Bill's purpose is to apply to Northern Ireland the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986, which my hon. Friend the Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke}—with support from both sides and both Houses of Parliament—took to the statute book with such marked skill and humanity. My hon. Friend was naturally anxious to be in the House to see this further progress in extending his Act to Northern Ireland. Through no fault of his own, he cannot be here, but I am sure he is very much in the thoughts of everyone present for this debate.

Very unfortunately for many disabled people, my hon. Friend's Act still awaits full implementation on this side of the water. Extremely important sections of the Act still lie dormant on the statute book nearly three years after it became law. I refer to sections 1, 2, 3, 7 and 11, all of which are of the first importance to the Act's purposes. The Government's failure to implement those sections of the 1986 Act is said to be due to lack of resources; but that does not convince many right hon. and hon. Members, even on the Conservative Benches, who have spoken of their frustration and concern. The Government's excuse for delay is totally rejected on this side of the House and by all the organisations of and for disabled people. They regard the delay in implementing the Act as both disgraceful and scandalous.

Mr. Stuart Randall (Kingston upon Hull, West)

Does my right hon. Friend not find it worrying or ironic that today we are talking about extending the existing 1986 Act to Northern Ireland when, as he rightly said, we do not seem to have fully implemented the Act satisfactorily in the other part of the United Kingdom? I am sure that my right hon. Friend is aware that in Humberside we are greatly concerned about that because disabled persons, especially mentally ill children, are not being provided with the right kind of services when they come out of hospital. My right hon. Friend referred to resources. Does he agree that it is ironic that we have just put £14—7 billion—or some phenomenal sum—into reserves yet people like that are not being——

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker)

Order. I very much hope that hon. Members will not pursue that matter because this is a Northern Ireland Bill.

Mr. Morris

My hon. Friend spoke about resources, as the Minister did at the Committee stage. I understand the concern of both sides of the House about the unsatisfactory reason given for the delay in providing them. Incontrovertibly, the resources have been and are now available for the full implementation of the 1986 Act. The problem is not one of resources, but of political will and priorities. Yet the provisions of the Disabled Persons Act 1986 are, in human terms, surely deserving of the highest priority. To govern is to choose, and, sadly, Ministers have chosen other priorities in preference to the full implementation of an Act which is so important to people with disabilities, their families and their carers. My hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Ms. Richardson) made wholly valid points about the importance of the role of carers and I entirely agree with her. She was right to make that role more visible in this House. We need to be told more by the Minister about the resources the Government intend to make available for the full implementation of the Disabled Persons (Northern Ireland) Bill.

In Committee the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland stated that his Department spends proportionately more on health care—more than 20 per cent.—than is spent in England and Wales. Can the Minister now tell us what that higher priority for health care spending in North Ireland means in terms of the pace at which the Bill can be implemented there? What has he to say about implementation dates? Will he be able to move more quickly than the snail's pace of his colleagues on this side of the water? Fewer than three weeks have passed since the Committee stage, but I hope that the Minister can now give the House more precise guidance than he was able to do in Committee.

In Committee the Minister said that in Northern Ireland: People are not moved out of hospitals or institutions without there being a plan for them to go into the community. But he later said: We are determined in Northern Ireland that nobody, but nobody, will leave institutional care and go into the community without individual care plans. If there is any question of anyone going out into the community without such a plan, because it has not been arranged … That appeared to amend, or at least modify, the Minister's earlier statements. I hope that he can tell us more today about his Department's survey of what actually happens to people who move from institutional care in Northern Ireland into the community. The Minister referred to the survey as being one to establish the facts. In response to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Dame J. Knight) in Committee, who had referred to the people from mental hospitals in England who now live in cardboard boxes in some of our cities, he said: We shall not have people living in cardboard boxes on the streets of Northern Ireland."—[Official Report, Standing Committee C, 22 March 1989; c. 8–12.] Without the proper assessments required by the Bill the revolving-door syndrome—about which MIND has spoken—will continue with all the tragic consequences that flow from it for disabled people. Time after time, as my hon. Friend the Member for Monklands, West said in Committee, people are released from hospital and then have to be readmitted. As the House has been told on more than one occasion in debates on the care of people released from long-stay hospitals, people spend weeks or months in between release and readmission not only in cardboard boxes, but often in gaol.

What proper assessment aims to achieve is that people with disabilities are given the right help, in the right place and at the right time. That is what successful rehabilitation of disabled people is all about and why the delay in giving full implementation to the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986 is so misconceived and so self-defeating in that appropriate care is also the most cost effective. There is no saving in denying people with disabilities the care appropriate to their needs when they leave long-stay hospitals. If community care, properly so-called, is not available to them, they are often forced to stay in or to return to institutional care at a far higher cost to the taxpayer than that of providing care in the community. Thus the policy of so strictly rationing resources for community care is neither cost-effective nor humane.

Any discussion of community care raises, of course, another inexcusable delay for which the Government are under attack from both sides of the House, namely, their failure to respond to the report from Sir Roy Griffiths, which was published over a year ago. It is indefensible for the Government to have dragged their feet for so long in relation to a report—whatever one may think of its findings—of such importance to many of the most needful people in Britain today.

The Bill has been described as being, in part, a parliamentary response to Griffiths. To that extent it anticipates the Government's response about which many of us now urgently want to be informed. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary is a Minister for Northern Ireland, but he is also a member of the Government as a whole. Can he now say when we will have the Government's response to Griffiths? At the same time, can he tell us any more than has so far been disclosed to the House about implementation dates for sections 1, 2, 3, 7 and 11 of the 1986 Act from which this Bill flows? He must have had consultations with ministerial colleagues on this matter if only because of the embarrassment that could result from speedier implementation of the legislation in Northern Ireland than in England, Scotland and Wales.

The last information that we had from the Minister for the disabled, was that section 11 would be the next section to be implemented at the end of this year. We were told that the implementation of section 7 would follow an. d then, even later, the implementation of sections 1, 2 and 3. The Minister gave us that information at a meeting of the all-party disablement group in the House on 24 January.

Can the Parliamentary Under-Secretary go any further today? He may know that his ministerial colleague was left in no doubt at the meeting of the all-party group that there is deep concern on both sides of the House about the delay in implementing crucial sections of the 1986 Act. Can the Parliamentary Under-Secretary give us any further information today?

With specific regard to the individual care plans for disabled people moving out of hospitals in Northern Ireland, who draws them up? Can the Minister tell us who is involved? How much further does clause 7 go than existing practice in Northern Ireland? It is extremely important for us to know, before the Bill leaves this House for the other place, how existing practice works, how successful it has been and precisely what changes the Minister envisages when the Bill is enacted and fully implemented?

In Committee the Minister won praise for his helpful response to the issues raised and for being refreshingly frank and fair in debate. I feel sure that he will want to be as helpful as possible in clarifying the Government's position today. In so doing, will he clarify the arrangements where a patient is discharged to Great Britain from a hospital in Northern Ireland or from a hospital in Great Britain to Northern Ireland? That question also has implications for implementation dates on both sides of the Irish sea.

I visited Northern Ireland as the then Minister for the Disabled, in the late 1970s. That was shortly after the extension to Northern Ireland of my Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970. That was accomplished by Lord Fitt who was then the Member of Parliament for Belfast, West. I was told by disabled people in Northern Ireland of the very considerable importance of the 1970 Act to them and of the concern of their organisations about the long delay there had been in extending its provisions to the United Kingdom as a whole.

I pay tribute today to all who work in the service of disabled people in Northern Ireland and profoundly hope that the Minister can assure us that this Bill will be fully and speedily implemented there. It is about ending preventable suffering and making life better for people whose claims on the attention of this House are among the most important we have to consider. To economise on them at a time when the Chancellor has such an enormous surplus at his disposal, and when the richest 1 per cent. of taxpayers have never had it so good, is patently unacceptable to everyone who understands the importance to disabled people—not least to disabled children—of this Bill and the legislation from which it derives.

Again I congratulate the hon. Member for Belfast, South. I thank the Minister for his helpfulness in Committee and pledge total support from these Benches for the fastest possible enactment and implementation of this Bill.

1.23 pm

Ms. Marjorie Mowlam (Redcar)

I shall be brief. I should like to lend support to the comments made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Morris) in welcoming the measure that the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) has brought to the House as a private Member's Bill this afternoon. We, too, hope that it will be speedily implemented.

I have on two hats—I represent pressure groups for the disabled in Redcar and the Northern Ireland Council on Disability. Both organisations are concerned that we might see the same sort of delays with this Bill that we saw with the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986. We are keen that it should be implemented quickly and want assurances from the Minister when he responds this afternoon that we shall not have to wait solely on lack of resources.

Sometimes, the Government use another excuse for delaying legislation—lack of statistical detail and factual background. I am sure that the Minister will remember that the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys' survey did not apply to the disabled in Northern Ireland. The information service press release which it put out on 15 December 1988 said that a survey on disability for Northern Ireland would be carried out. The press release said that the survey would be carried out by the Policy, Planning and Research Unit of the Department of Finance and Personnel and will take about 2 years to complete. It would be useful for the Minister to tell us how that survey has progressed in the first couple of months, whether it is on schedule and what results—if any—have been found up to now. It would be useful to know whether he will tell us at a later date that the Bill will not be implemented because the factual background and statistical detail is not available and there will be a two-year wait for the statistics. If we are to hear that excuse it would be useful if we could hear it from the Minister this afternoon so that we do not have to wait for oral and written questions and then, in two years' time, find that we are given this excuse.

I should like to highlight clause 5 which relates to special needs education which, with part of the Education Reform Act 1988 being implemented in Northern Ireland, concerns many Opposition Members. We are concerned about what will be done for those with special needs when the national curriculum is introduced and whether children in need of particular educational requirements will be denied that curriculum or segregated. Clause 5 is important in relation to education for that group.

Finally, if I may make so bold, I ask the Minister to clarify his position on how the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986 applies to Northern Ireland. I am sure that he remembers responding to the hon. Member for Belfast, South in Committee by saying: The Department was considering introducing a Bill, but the hon. Gentleman"— namely, the hon. Member for Belfast, South— came to our rescue. We are therefore most grateful to him. I think that we all agree that the 1986 Act should apply in Northern Ireland."—[Official Report, Standing Committee C, 22 March 1989; c. 5.] However, in response to a question about whether the Bill should apply to Northern Ireland, the Minister said in a written answer: No. It would not be appropriate for Northern Ireland to be included in the scope of this Bill."—[Official Report, 24 February 1986; Vol. 92, c436] I am sure that by that the Minister meant that it should not relate to the 1986 Act, but it would be useful if he would put that on record so that we are not left with contrary views that could be misinterpreted by the Minister.

We should be grateful if these two points were dealt with. We lend our full support to this Bill, but we want reassurance from the Minister that the political will and the resources exist to implement it, so that we do not have to wait as long as we did for regulations to be introduced under the 1986 Act, and so that disabled people will begin to benefit.

1.31 pm

Mr. John Hughes (Coventry, North-East)

I welcome the opportunity to congratulate the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) and to ask the House to consider whether the Bill offers enough protection for the disabled, especially those discharged from hospitals because of the pressures imposed on staff due to the denial of adequate finance for the National Health Service.

I draw this problem to the attention of the House because of the horrific circumstances in which my constituent John Carl Wright was discharged from a Coventry hospital into the community. Because of the Government's unwillingness to provide adequate finance, the hospital could not give him proper support. That led to a sequence of events which resulted in my constituent being detained in Birmingham's Winson Green hospital—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker)

Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not pursue this case very far, because the Bill is a Northern Ireland Bill. On Third Reading we are required to address ourselves to what is in the Bill.

Mr. Hughes

The circumstances that applied to my constituent could apply to a disabled person in Northern Ireland. I ask the House to consider whether a society in which such circumstances arise is civilised. Was my disabled constituent a criminal, or are the real criminals the Government who deny the necessary services for support in the community—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman might be on safer ground if he hypothesised about a hypothetical person in Northern Ireland who might find himself in hypothetical circumstances that were affected by the Bill.

Mr. Hughes

Whether the person lives in Northern Ireland, England, Wales or Scotland, the problems of all such people have been compounded by the changes in social security benefits. Government figures show that 3.65 million disabled people will be losers under the new system. New claimants could be £50 a week worse off from these changes.

I support this Bill, and congratulate its promotion.

1.35 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Richard Needham)

I was pleased to hear the contribution by the hon. Member for Coventry, North-East (Mr. Hughes) and noted his interest in the affairs of Northern Ireland. I look forward to his continued participation in such debates, given his obvious knowledge about the affairs of the Province.

We have spent much time discussing aspects of the 1986 Act which, of course, do not bear on the Bill, although I accept that what we are discussing is an exact replica of that Act. I shall do what I can to answer the questions posed by the right hon. Member for Manchester Wythenshawe (Mr. Morris) about the aspects of the legislation that affect Northern Ireland. However, I am afraid that I am not able to do that in connection with matters that are the responsibility of my colleagues.

I am sure that the hon. Member for Redcar (Ms. Mowlam) knew the answer to the second question that she asked before she posed it. The 1986 Act was not appropriate for Northern Ireland because in Northern Ireland the social services and the health boards are integrated. That is why the Griffiths report does not have the relevance to Northern Ireland that it has to the rest of Britain. That was also why in Committee I congratulated the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) on rightly pushing the Government to introduce the Bill. Although we had intended to do so, I congratulate him again on getting the Bill as far as he has.

The Bill institutionalises the good practice, which I hope currently exists, as the basis for caring for disabled people in Northern Ireland. It is right for the Bill to do that. I hope that in Northern Ireland the vast majority of the proposals in the Bill are already being applied. I accept that there is a need to institutionalise them and to build on them and we shall certainly do that.

The hon. Member for Redcar asked about the review. That was a "When did you stop beating your wife?" type of question. As the hon. Lady well knows, we do not intend to come forward prematurely with proposals that have been properly thought through or are not based on the statistics that are available to us. A review that could not be supported by the facts would be a mockery.

I shall not repeat what I said in Committee to the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe, but I stand by what I said then. Under no circumstances will we allow people in Northern Ireland to be released into the community without an assessment being made of their needs; nor will we tolerate people living in cardboard boxes. As I said in Committee and elsewhere, if there is any question of people not having proper care they will not be moved out. We shall ensure and insist that proper care is provided in every case. As I have said many times, we have no evidence that that has happened to anyone. If anyone can give us such evidence I shall look upon it with the utmost gravity.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Needham

No. I shall now reply to the hon. Member for Belfast, South, whose Bill it is. The sections of the Great Britain Act that are currently in force are sections 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10. The equivalent clauses in the Bill are 4, 5, 6, 8 and 9. As the hon. Member for Barking (Ms. Richardson) said, clause 8 relates to carers. I was grateful for and accept her comments about carers. Clause 8 is a crucial part of the Bill. I trust that the boards in Northern Ireland consider cases at the moment with regard to carers in the terms set out in the Bill. We hope to get the equivalent clauses into operation as quickly as possible. I give an undertaking to the hon. Member for Belfast, South that we intend to do that as quickly as possible.

Ms. Mowlam

My point and the point that I am sure that the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) was making is that we appreciate that the Minister says that he will do this as quickly as possible. However, we are concerned that many sections of the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and Representation) Act 1986 are still awaiting implementation. Therefore, "as quickly as possible" is a little vague and general. We want a definite response from the Minister about the time span.

With regard to my earlier point, I was not interested in whether the Minister beats his wife although it looks as if someone has beaten him this afternoon. I was asking specifically whether he will use the survey which is being carried out into disability in Northern Ireland over the next two years as a reason why nothing will happen over the next two years. The Minister's response seemed to be that we will have to wait two years before anything happens.

Mr. Needham

I did not say that. The hon. Lady heard perfectly well what I said. She reaffirms my view that she knew the answer to the question that she asked. She knows. perfectly well that whatever I say she will treat as unsatisfactory. It would be intolerable, as the hon. Lady knows, for us to come forward with a review if it had not been thought out and we did not have all the available statistics. This process will take however long is necessary. I cannot say that it will take two years, two months or two days. We will do it as quickly as possible, as the hon. Lady knows. We need to do it as quickly as possible to ensure that the service available for disabled people in Northern Ireland is as capable and adequate as we can make it.

The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe asked why there is such so much money available for the budget in Northern Ireland in comparison to the rest of the country. The right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Redcar know that there are higher levels of deprivation and morbidity in Northern Ireland. I was grateful to the hon. Member for Belfast, South for explaining the valid reasons for the funding and for putting on the record some of the not so valid reasons.

We must analyse how we can best use the resources. We are going back to the boards to discuss the costs of this legislation once it is introduced. The figures are not available at the moment. The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe knows only too well that it is not for me to say, priority by priority, how the boards spend the money that is allocated to them. If I did that, there would be no point in having the boards. It is up to the boards, as part of their strategic plans, to determine how the resouces are to be spent and what resources they can find to implement the legislation.

However, I accept that the Bill is important and necessary for Northern Ireland. I congratulate the hon. Member for Belfast, South on the way in which he has handled his Bill and, as I said, I will do everything to ensure that we implement as quickly as possible everything that is already being implemented in Britain. Thereafter, we will look at the other clauses, which I hope will soon be sections, to see how quickly we can add those to the list. I agree entirely with the hon. Member for Belfast, South that we must do everything possible to improve and build on the very good level of care that we currently provide for disabled people in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker)

I call Mr. Skinner.

1.44 pm

Mr. Skinner (Bolsover)

Said Mr. Deputy Speaker with a heavy sigh.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman underrates the gravity with which I called him.

Mr. Skinner

I was here this morning on the dot, and I have just listened to the Minister reply to the points made by my right hon. and hon. Friends. I also recall other Bills for the disabled being brought before the House since 1970 by other Back Benchers. One of them was my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Morris), who in 1970, together with his brother, introduced a Bill. My right hon. Friend has been arguing for additional resources for the disabled ever since.

The law is being broken left, right and centre by the Government and by mainly Tory local authorities refusing to implement the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970. My hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ms. Mowlem) asks when the Bill will be enacted and when extra resources will be made available. Despite her further intervention, the Minister has not given a satisfactory reply.

The hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) should beware the sprat that is thrown to catch a mackerel. There is just half a chance that the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will tell him that a little more might be done, provided that he signs on the dotted line in respect of the Anglo-Irish Agreement. I can see that coming. I can see there being a bit of blackmail, with the Government saying, "We can hurry this measure along and help the hon. Member with his private Member's Bill", because that is how callously the Government treat the disabled. If that were not the case, why does my right hon. Friend have to battle week in, week out for the necessary resources? I warn all right hon. and hon. Members who think that the Bill is past the post that they should beware when a private Member's Bill is given the nod by the Government.

One would think that the Government did not have the money to implement the Bill yet we are talking about helping only 100,000 disabled people in Northern Ireland. We are talking about providing them with telephones, and it can be argued that they need telephones more than people in other parts of the United Kingdom. Only a few weeks ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer told the House, "I've got £14,000 million and I do not know what to do with it." Then a Minister tells the House on a Friday afternoon that he does not know where the resources to meet the Bill's provisions will come from—just a few hundreds of millions of pounds to help to meet the needs of the disabled.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe pointed out that the Bill is all about making sure that assessments are speeded up. We know only too well that it is one thing to tell the disabled that their local authority is looking into the matter, but it is another when an official reveals that the rate support grant has been cut again and that assessments must be slowed down, saying, "We feel sorry for the disabled but we must shove those assessments into a little pigeon hole." The country is awash with money. The Chancellor is paying off the national debt when he should be paying off society's debt to the disabled both in Britain and in Northern Ireland. He should be paying off our debt to the people who have grafted all their lives and who generated this country's wealth. Instead, we have a tinpot Minister coming to the House who must have tumbled off his motor bike—he has a scar on his face.

The Minister says that he cannot guarantee when the Bill will be enacted, but he dangles that prospect like a carrot. It may be a question of waiting until a few months before the next general election and then of making a special announcement to provide a sweetener to the people of Northern Ireland. We may subsequently see English, Scottish and Welsh Ministers coming to the House and telling my right hon. Friend that, in lieu of the Northern Ireland legislation, the Government intend doing a little more.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Redcar wanted the Minister to be more specific over timing.

Ms. Mowlam

I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that one of the reasons why the Northern Ireland Council on Disability is so keen to see the legislation on the statutue book is the impact of the Government 'training schemes, which is causing particular concern in Northern Ireland. The schemes are not servicing the needs of the disabled and many young disabled people have no future.

Mr. Skinner

This has always been a problem in Northern Ireland. Disabled people are usually at the bottom of the pile, and you can bet your bottom dollar that in a capitalist society they will be the first to be shoved on one side and thrown on the scrap heap. If hon. Members look at the cardboard boxes on the Charing Cross embankment, they will see a lot of disabled people.

In Northern Ireland, mass unemployment has prevailed throughout my lifetime at least. It has never been conquered, and it is one of the problems—although not the only one—at the root of the trouble in Northern Ireland. That is why from time to time the Government throw other little sprats, such as the Harland and Wolff privatisation scheme, but I shall not talk about that today—I noticed you shuffling in your chair, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Let me say this to the Minister: get along to the Prime Minister—when she has got rid of her flavour-of-the-month friend Gorbachev—and tell her, "There has been a debate in the House of Commons this morning about a necessary Bill for Northern Ireland. Only a few hundred million pounds are needed to provide a bit more comfort for disabled people there." The Minister is not listening; he does not care.

Let the hon. Gentleman say to the Prime Minister, "You are the Prime Minister who, only a few weeks ago, found £500 million on the nod to try to placate a dozen Tory Kent constituencies with which you were in trouble." The Bexley Mujahidin came down with the hordes, and she found the money—I hear that it has now risen to £800 million. That is the Prime Minister who found a sum of money on a television programme because there was a mix-up over some figures between her and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. She trots around all those gimmicks. Is it not time that Ministers had the guts to challenge her? Instead of letting themselves be treated like rubbing rags or dishcloths, why do they not say to her, "If I am to carry out the proper wishes of the people of Northern Ireland, I need money"? And the same applies in Great Britain.

Having more or less assured the hon. Member for Belfast, South that the Bill would be passed, and having given him other little assurances on the side that everything would be all right, the Minister now comes along on the fateful morning—sent by his gaffer—to tell the House, "I will not give in on the question of resources", and to stick to it rigidly. He has been told, "Stand your ground. We have £14,000 million of taxpayers' money, but you cannot give it to the disabled."

I think that the Minister should make one last effort to answer at the Dispatch Box. He should say exactly what he will do about resources, when the Bill will be enacted, when the necessary assessments will be made and when money will be provided to cure some of the problems in Northern Ireland. Then we in Great Britain can build on that.

1.53 pm

Rev. Martin Smyth

I appreciate the helpful contributions made by hon. Members on both sides of the House, particularly the arguments of the hon. Member for Barking (Ms. Richardson) on behalf of carers. I think that the Minister has got the message.

I was also delighted by what was said by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner). It may reflect a conversation that I had recently with an old sparring partner of his who now deals with social services in Northern Ireland, and who sent his greetings.

If there is any suspicion that we in Northern Ireland can be bought off on this day of days, I must say that we, too, can speak Russian and that we say, "Niet."

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.