HC Deb 05 April 1989 vol 150 cc193-6 3.32 pm
Mr. George Robertson (Hamilton)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I draw to your attention, and seek your advice on, something that the Prime Minister said to the House yesterday and that has considerable implications for the House?

In reply to a question put to her by the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston), the Prime Minister said: The hon. Gentleman can read for himself the report of the secretary general to the United Nations Security Council. She went on to say: he can also obtain for himself a copy of the Geneva protocols which were specifically agreed to by SWAPO. All those are public knowledge, and the hon. Gentleman can get them from the Library at any time. The Prime Minister used documents yesterday to make an attack on one side in Namibia, that is, SWAPO, but the fact is that the secretary general's report to the United Nations Security Council was not publicly available yesterday when she said that it was. It was not in the House of Commons Library then and it is not in the Library now.

More seriously, the documents that she referred to as the "Geneva protocols", which led her to say in her answer,

"SWAPO committed itself to the Geneva accord under which it is required to stay north of the 16th parallel in Angola"—[Official Report, 4 April 1989; Vol. 150, c. 15.], are not available. In The Guardian today, Cedric Thornberry, the assistant to the United Nations' special representative in Namibia, is quoted as saying: We have no official knowledge of that treaty and so far as I know it has never been published". Yesterday the Prime Minister was fresh back from Namibia and chose to make a one-sided and partisan attack on SWAPO in a brief reply to a question without making the proper and full statement that the House expected. She did so by citing documents which were not, and in one case cannot be, in the public domain or in the House of Commons Library. This is an inexcusable way of treating the House.

In the face of escalating violence and deaths on Namibia's northern border, there is real concern in this country about the possible collapse of the peace plan, the danger of further killing which may well threaten British troops—

Mr. Speaker

Order. This is not a statement; the hon. Gentleman is raising a point of order with me.[Interruption.] Order. I am not responsible for what has been said by the Prime Minister. I will hear the rest of the point of order as long as it is brief.

Mr. Robertson

I am putting to you, Mr. Speaker, the very serious point that on a matter of acute importance to the House, to the country and to British troops serving in Namibia, the Prime Minister cited the existence of extremely important documents, telling us that they were in the House of Commons Library and were publicly available. The fact that they are not publicly available and are still not in the Library must be of genuine concern to all of us and to you.

The House expected the Prime Minister yesterday to come forward with at least some support for the United Nations secretary general in his efforts in Namibia and also possibly support for a British plan on the same lines as were applicable in Zimbabwe. However, we were faced only with partisan invective. As the Prime Minister cited documents that she said were available and were not, and that are important but are not in the public domain, will you, Mr. Speaker, seek to protect the House from such conduct and perhaps ask the Prime Minister for an explanation?

Mr. Speaker

I am not responsible for what is said at Question Time.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. John Wakeham)

The hon. Gentleman went rather wide of the point of order. I have Hansard in front of me. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister answered a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry), that was the principal answer. It was only in answer to a supplementary question that she referred to some documents. I understand that she was not correct in what she said and that the documents were not in the Library. I understand that arrangements are being made for copies of the agreement and the Geneva protocols to be placed in the Library this afternoon. It was a genuine mistake on the part of my right hon. Friend. I apologise to the House for any inconvenience that has occurred, but I understand that the documents will be put in the Library this afternoon.

Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I do not see how it can be a point of order to me. The Leader of the House has made a comment about the matter, but I will hear the right hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Williams

We have observed the increasing practice of the Prime Minister, in the middle of Prime Minister's questions, of making limited statements on which there can be no further questions, so using up valuable time. When the Prime Minister makes a mistake, why should she not observe the same rules as the rest of us? Instead of sending a messenger along to say, "Please, I am sorry, but as I am Prime Minister you will ignore it," why on earth does not the right hon. Lady have the guts to come here herself to say that she was wrong and that she misled the House?

Mr. Jeff Rooker (Birmingham, Perry Barr)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is a different point of order on which I ask for your ruling. I will be brief. The point of order relates to your ruling yesterday in respect of the sub judice rule as it affects the Department of Trade and Industry report on the House of Fraser. I should like you to confirm that, although the sub judice rule applies during our deliberations at Question Time and on statements, it does not apply when the House of Commons or the other House is discussing legislation. When we are discussing the passage of Bills, where it is relevant, the sub judice rule does not apply. I seek your confirmation and guidance on that.

Mr. Speaker

I do not know about the other House, but I can confirm that that is so in this House.

Mr. Neil Hamilton (Tatton)

Further to the first point of order, Mr. Speaker. I did not catch everything that the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) said, but it sounded to me very much—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I do not think that there is anything that I can add to what the Leader of the House said.

Mr. Hamilton

rose—

Mr. Speaker

In equity, I will hear the hon. Gentleman, but it must be a point of order for me to answer.

Mr. Hamilton

It sounded very much as though the Labour party is supporting the bunch of terrorists that is trying to sabotage the independence of Namibia.

Mr. Speaker

I think that we are off on an extension of Question Time.

Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan)

On a point of order Mr. Speaker. In the list of amendments to the Electricity Bill, amendment No. 169 has been incorrectly recorded as standing in my name—

Mr. Speaker

We shall deal with that when we come to the Bill.

Mr. Robert Hughes (Aberdeen, North)

Further to the earlier point of order, Mr. Speaker, about the Prime Minister's answer yesterday. I am grateful to the Leader of the House for apologising for part of the mistake. Is he aware that there were further misleading statements? The Prime Minister said clearly that there was no provision for SWAPO bases inside the country. There are published documents that state the contrary. It is up to you, Mr. Speaker. on a matter as grave as this, with such tremendous issues at stake, to ensure that the Prime Minister, who returned from Namibia only two or three days ago, is compelled to come to the House and make a statement to withdraw the totally wrong allegations that she made against SWAPO.

Mr. Speaker

The House knows that I cannot be held responsible for what is said from the Dispatch Box or from the Back Benches. There will be other opportunities for hon. Members to raise the matter, doubtless even tomorrow.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Is it on a different matter?

Mr. Skinner

Yes, Mr. Speaker. As you will be aware, those responsible are still deliberating over the question of televising the House. In the meantime, we have to watch television programmes about politics and other matters. From what I gather, on Friday night, on Channel 4, there will be an interesting programme about the life and times of the Prime Minister and that it will suggest that Leon Brittan is reported as saying that Bernard Ingham and Charles Powell deliberately leaked the Solicitor-General's letter about Westland. If so, that confirms what my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) said about the Prime Minister continually misleading the House. If that is the case, she should be brought here to explain.

Mr. Speaker

I do not know what the programme will say—

Mr. Skinner

I urge you to watch it, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

I should like to watch it, but I shall be holding a constituency surgery.

Mr. Norman Buchan (Paisley, South)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seek your help and guidance. Elements of war have broken out in relation to agreements by which we were bound. That is the situation in Namibia. There must be some means by which a responsible Minister can be made to come to the House to make a statement on that subject. Apart from the needs of the House, it is imperative that that is done for the sake of the issue that is involved. The Leader of the House is in his place. Can it be put to him, through you, Mr. Speaker, that a statement is required and should be made and the inaccurate statements about the situation withdrawn?

Mr. Speaker

An opportunity will arise at Prime Minister's Question Time tomorrow, if the House wishes to pursue the subject. There will also be business questions tomorrow. The Leader of the House will have heard what has been said, and doubtless there may be the possibility of the House debating the matter.

Mr. Paul Boateng (Brent, South)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Does the hon. Gentleman wish to raise a point of order on a different matter?

Mr. Boateng

Further to the response of the Leader of the House—

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is not a matter for me. We have a very busy day ahead and I suggest that we should now get on.

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. My point concerns the disciplining of a Member of the House. My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) was banned from the House because of a remark that he made about the Prime Minister. If, however, it turns out that what he said was basically true—that the information was leaked on the direct instructions of the Prime Minister's press secretary and private secretary, which does not seem to be any longer in dispute as a result of what Sir Leon Brittan has said—then surely my hon. Friend was perfectly right—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I do not intend to be drawn into an argument about a programme that none of us has yet seen.

Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.