HC Deb 10 November 1988 vol 140 cc475-6
8. Mr. Mallon

To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he last met the Army GOC in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement about their discussions.

Mr. Tom King

I last met the GOC on Monday 7 November, together with the Chief Constable of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, to discuss certain aspects of the security situation. The substance must, of course, be confidential.

Mr. Mallon

Will the Secretary of State confirm that, in the border brigade area, primacy of operational decision has passed, or been taken, from the police and given to the Army? Does he agree that that is a sinister and fundamental change of policy that has been forced upon him as Secretary of State and on the Chief Constable of the RUC by the faceless military people who are now the de facto rulers in Northern Ireland?

Mr. King

If they are, they have not told me. The hon. Gentleman's ingenious question deviates considerably from the real situation. There is no change in the position on police primacy. The Chief Constable has responsibility for operational matters and the Army works in support of the civil power, but in certain respects in the border brigade, and in operations against terrorism, the Chief Constable has delegated certain operational responsibilities and authority to the Army. The Army acts under his authority. That is the position. It is quite clear, it has my full support, and I, the Chief Constable and the GOC keep it under close review.

Mr. Marlow

Is it not the case that since three terrorists met a well-merited death at the hands of the security forces the level of violence and terrorist activity has reduced in the Province? Is this a coincidence, or does my right hon. Friend make some deductions from it?

Mr. King

In terms of attempted terrorist incidents, that is not actually correct. However, I draw the attention of the House to the great energy and determination of the security forces. While there is a constant threat of attack, undoubtedly there have been a number of recent successes. A number of arrests have been made and the security forces certainly deserve every congratulation for that.

Mr. Maginnis

When the Secretary of State talks to the GOC, does he recollect that each time he comes to the House to report on the security situation in Northern Ireland he produces a long and sad catalogue of deaths? He also produces a never-ending catalogue of arms and explosives found. Will he remind the GOC that if we could have continuity of frontier operations we would have a much greater chance of reducing the easy flow of arms and explosives from the Irish Republic into Northern Ireland? Since 92 per cent. of IRA murders are unresolved through the courts, does the right hon. Gentleman discuss with the GOC the need to dismantle the command and control structures of the IRA? Will he ask officers further down the line what they feel as they have to go out, week after week, sacrificing life and limb to try to uphold the status quo with the limited resources made available to them by the Secretary of State?

Mr. King

The answer that I gave to the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Rev. William McCrea) sought to explain certain ways in which I am seeking to ensure that the security forces receive the support they deserve in the important and dangerous work they do. I am seeking ways in which some of the objectives defined by the hon. Gentleman can be achieved. I am anxious to improve cross-border co-operation and make more effective the work of the Garda Siochana and the Irish Army working in support of it. Those are some measures that can help. I take seriously the hon. Gentleman's point about the need to ensure that the security forces receive all the backing we can provide in the circumstances in which they operate.

Rev. Ian Paisley

Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that the statement issued a few days ago concerning the Loughgall incident was widely welcomed by all right-thinking people in Northern Ireland, who are glad that those responsible for dealing with the IRA effectively will not be brought before the courts? Will he take it from me also that there is also a desire among all right-thinking people that any innocent person who happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time should receive compensation as promptly as possible?

Mr. King

Obviously, deaths of or injuries to any innocent people are deeply regretted. I do not think that there is any serious argument about the purpose of the terrorists killed in that attack. It was a miracle that there were no serious casualties among the security forces. We are often attacked by people who say that the procedures do not properly scrutinise the rule of law and the pursuit of the rule of law. It is worth remembering, as the hon. Gentleman knows, that what I reported on that occasion was the outcome of the scrutiny procedure. Every time a death is suffered by the security forces it is subject to close scrutiny and is the subject of a report to the Director of Public Prosecutions. That shows how we seek at all times to ensure that the rule of law is upheld.