HC Deb 07 November 1988 vol 140 cc18-20
72. Mr. Winnick

To ask the Minister for the Civil Service when he last met the leaders of Civil Service unions; and what subjects were discussed.

Mr. Luce

I have meetings from time to time with representatives of Civil Service trade unions both centrally and during visits to Civil Service establishments. A wide variety of matters are raised.

Mr. Winnick

Are we to understand that the Prime Minister's statement in Poland about basic human rights means that trade unionists at GCHQ will no longer be victimised because they want to exercise their basic human rights in this country? As the word "hypocrisy" is not allowed here, how else can the Minister explain the difference between what the Prime Minister says in Poland and what the Government do in this country?

Mr. Luce

I am astonished that the hon. Gentleman can seek to draw a parallel between what is happening in Poland today and what is happening in this country. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister paid a highly successful visit to Poland and the hon. Gentleman should be proud of the fact that my right hon. Friend carries such authority abroad. As for the hon. Gentleman's comparison, does he not understand the difference between Poland and true democracy, with freedom under the law and a freely elected Parliament? If he does not understand that, he does not understand anything.

Mr. Hind

In his discussions with Civil Service trade unions about executive agencies, will my right hon. Friend consider locating many of these new executive agencies in the provinces in areas of high unemployment? Will he also pursuade the trade unions to agree to that course of action?

Mr. Luce

My right hon. Friend the Paymaster General has answered questions on this subject in the House. The Government are actively setting the right environment in which it is possible for Departments to take decisions about whether to be inside London or in another part of the country. Four out of five civil servants are now outside London, but they need to consider carefully, sensibly and ruthlessly, whether there are advantages in moving to another part of the country.

Dr. Marek

Does the Minister accept that on more than one occasion trade unions in GCHQ offered a no-strike deal to the Government? Will he confirm that the Government did not respond to those offers and decided to ban the right of free association? What explanation can there be for today's action by many thousands of trade unionists other than a firm rebuttal of the Prime Minister's pathological hatred of British trade unionists and her belief that trade unionists throughout the country are the enemy within?

Mr. Luce

It surprises me that the hon. Gentleman has not yet accepted that national security has to come first and that GCHQ needs to operate continuously if it is to be effective. Between 1979 and 1981, 10,000 working days were lost. As a result of that, the effectiveness of GCHQ was jeopardised. That is the heart of the matter.