Agencies (Hansard, 7 November 1988)

§ 69. Mr. Wilshire
To ask the Minister for the Civil Service what progress has been made in the last four months in the establishment of Government agencies under the Civil Service reforms.

§ 70. Mr. Tim Smith
To ask the Minister for the Civil Service how many executive agencies have beeen established.

§ Mr. Luce
Two executive agencies, the Vehicle Inspectorate and Companies House, have been established so far. A further 30 candidates are under consideration.

§ Mr. Wilshire
I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. Does he now have more activities to add to the list that he announced on 25 July? What specific arrangements are being made for each agency to ensure that there is strong public accountability and a business management ethos?

§ Mr. Luce
I am grateful for my hon. Friend's interest. I have undertaken to give a progress report to the House every six months or so on the establishment of agencies. As I said, we now have the two first agencies—the Vehicle Inspectorate and Companies House. I expect the Department of Health and Social Security resettlement units and the employment service to be early candidates for the creation of agencies. Since I last spoke in the House, there are three new candidates—the Land Registry, the Building Research Establishment and the Crown Suppliers' fuel business.
The Select Committee on the Treasury and Civil Service has made its views known to us about accountability. The established traditions of accountability and ministerial responsibility to the House remain, and the methods for achieving that are being looked at as a result of the views of the Committee. The Government will reply to them shortly.

§ Mr. Smith
On that last point, may I reinforce what the Select Committee on the Treasury and Civil Service said about accountability. Does my right hon. Friend agree that if we give the chief executive of an agency the responsibility of running it, he, not a permanent secretary at the Department, should be the accounting officer? I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to respond positively to the recommendations made by the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee.

§ Mr. Luce
I take careful note of my hon. Friend's comments. As he says, that was one of the points made by the Select Committee and I assure him that we shall take that aspect on board.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
I believe that the Minister's answers today are of some historic importance, and only time will tell why. Will he give an absolute assurance that the creation of the agencies will in no way undermine the accountability of Departments or Ministers to Members of Parliament and to Parliament?

§ Mr. Luce
I give an absolute assurance to the hon. Gentleman that it will not, in any way. I believe that it will actually strengthen the system of accountability. At the end of the day Ministers are directly accountable to the House.

§ Mr. Cryer
Is not experience with the establishment of private agencies that Ministers who seek to evade responsibility will always be able to refer questions to that particular agency? That happens now with organisations in the public sector, such as the Central Electricity Generating Board. All the assurances are so much hollow nonsense, because hiving off means that the Table Office will not accept parliamentary questions, the Minister can evade them and there is a severe diminution in public accountability to the House.

§ Mr. Luce
I disagree. The principle of delegated authority to civil servants to carry on their responsibilities and have some budget control will lead to better management and to decision-making within the Civil Service of an even higher standard than at present. The principle is right. At the same time, the principle of ministerial accountability to the House remains absolutely firm. At the end of the day the Minister in charge, the political head of the Department, will be accountable to the House of Commons.