HC Deb 03 November 1988 vol 139 cc1169-70
5. Mr. Leigh

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he last met the Association of Chief Police Officers; and whether he will make a statement on what was discussed.

Mr. Douglas Hurd

I hold many meetings with the officers and committees of ACPO. The most recent was with members of the ACPO traffic committee on 24 October. The matters that we discussed included police breath-testing powers and the enforcement of road traffic law.

Mr. Leigh

With almost 5,000 police officers recruited in non-metropolitan areas since 1979, no one can doubt the Government's commitment to giving the police resources to deal with rural crime. However, when my right hon. Friend last met the association, did he make it clear that, having shown our commitment, Conservative Members demand from the police productivity, value for money and, above all, the concentration of resources on dealing with crimes against the person and property?

Mr. Hurd

My hon. Friend is right. He simply emphasises what I said a few moments ago. We have a steadily expanding programme for the police, but, before we consider demands from particular forces, we must ask whether the taxpayer and ratepayer are already getting value for money. I am greatly helped in that by the Inspectorate of Constabulary and am glad to say that an increasing number of police forces are innovating and using civilians, who cost half as much, for jobs that were previously done by uniformed officers and are finding new ways of streamlining their procedures and coping more effectively with the wide range of tasks that increasingly fall upon the police.

Mr. Ashton

Is it not a fact that police chiefs have said that the new registration scheme for football supporters is nothing but a fig leaf and that it will not stop hooliganism, which takes place on the way to the grounds rather than inside the grounds? The Government's attitude towards rural violence differs from their attitude towards football supporters. They are insisting on a registration scheme that will do a great deal of damage to the game and its finances and will have little effect on the national crime figures.

Mr. Hurd

I do not understand the logic of the hon. Gentleman's view. It is true that much hooliganism takes place on the way to and from the football ground. That is one reason why we have drawn the attention of the licensing justices to their powers temporarily to close premises, such as off-licences and pubs, in such circumstances. However, there is no reason why we should not deal effectively with the other problem in the grounds. The scheme that will be produced by my hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for sport—I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has yet seen the details—will be designed to deal with those problems.

Mr. Hill

During my right hon. Friend's discussions with the chief police officers, will he once again try to revive the neighbourhood watch scheme in Hampshire? I have had words with the newly appointed chief constable, and the police say that they are 135 under establishment. That is one reason why they are unable to co-ordinate quite as well as they should with neighbourhood watch schemes. In some areas, such as large estates, there is a problem of co-ordination, because too few people wish to take part in the schemes.

Mr. Hurd

The neighbourhood watch scheme movement has grown so fast—there are now about 60,000 schemes, whereas six years ago there were only two—that the police have a problem in deciding how to keep in touch with them, which is essential for the success of the scheme. My hon. Friend is right. It does not necessarily follow that all that must be done by uniformed police officers. In some areas of London it is being done by civilians working with the police. In other areas, such as West Yorkshire, it is being done by special constables. That is one area where the police can usefully innovate.

Mr. Hattersley

Will the Home Secretary say how many chief constables at his most recent meeting had outstanding applications to him for increases in their forces? Is it not a fact that more than 50 per cent. of them have applications for increased establishments, which the Home Secretary has refused?

Mr. Hurd

It is probably true that about that number have outstanding requests, but they know perfectly well that they are not refused. We carry on the applications into the next year and consider them. Thanks to the arrangements made with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, I now have slightly more resources for next year, but they will be difficult to allocate. We are piling a record on a record. This service will continue to have a higher increase than any other public service, but it will be tight, and that is why the supplementary question of my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh) is to the point.