HC Deb 01 November 1988 vol 139 cc914-20

Ordered, That, at this day's sitting, the Lords Amendments to the Health and Medicines Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. Fallon.]

Lords amendments again considered.

Question again proposed.

Mr. Mellor

When the bell intervened, Mr. Speaker, I was saying that my hon. Friend had quoted his article in the Evening Standard which, no doubt, has remunerated him well enough to enable him to pay for his next check-up —[HON. MEMBERS: "Disgraceful."]

Mr. Hayes

rose

Mr. Speaker

Order.

Mr. Hayes

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman may make his point if the Minister gives way.

Mr. Mellor

I am teasing my hon. Friend—[Interruption.]

Mr. Hayes

rose

Mr. Speaker

Order.

Mr. Mellor

I purchased a copy of the Evening Standard to read my hon. Friend's article. The figure that my hon. Friend gives of 2,600 oral cancer cases includes cancer of the throat which is not detected by dentists. It is cancer of the mouth cavity that accounts for 1,500 cases—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. I sense that we are coming to the end of this important debate.

Mr. Mellor

Later in his article, my hon. Friend states that "a mere £140 million" is what is at stake tonight. That does not—

Ms. Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North)

rose

Mr. Mellor

No, I cannot give way now.

That does not seem a fair basis on which to decide how to cast one's vote in this debate because £140 million is a large amount of money in Health Service terms—

Mr. Hayes

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker—

Mr. Mellor

My hon. Friend—

Mr. Hayes

rose

Mr. Speaker

Order. Is it a point of order?

Mr. Hayes

With respect to my hon. and learned Friend, he suggested that I profited from the article— [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is not a point of order for me.

Hon. Members

Withdraw.

Mr. Mellor

Of course, if it will make my hon. Friend feel any better about it, I will withdraw any such suggestion. I should like to deal with what he actually said—

Mr. Martin Flannery (Sheffield, Hillsborough)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Why do you not make the Minister withdraw that comment?

Mr. Speaker

Because I am not responsible for what is said, provided that it is in order. It may have been in bad taste, but it was in order.

Mr. Mellor

My hon. Friend wrote: The cost of retaining the free dental and sight check is a mere £140 million". No hon. Member should vote tonight under any illusion, because £140 million is a great deal of money in NHS terms. I advise my hon. Friend that the total cost of all the medical services offered by the district health authority which contains his constituency amounted last year to £41.7 million. That buys an awful lot of treatment.

We shall be concerned later tonight with the treatment of eye disease. I attended the opening, by Her Majesty the Queen, of the brand new, rebuilt Moorfields eye hospital last week. That cost £15 million, only one tenth of the mere £140 million of which my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow spoke. We want to reduce the number of patients on the waiting lists. For £25 million last year, we did over 100,000 more in-patient operations—[Interruption.] —and we shall do more than that next time. I wish that Opposition Members would be quiet for just a few minutes—[Interruption.]—and I shall finish a great deal sooner. It comes down to a judgment whether, in this day and age, when the man on average wages is 30 per cent. better off than he was 10 years ago, we think that £3.15 once or twice a year will be a major disincentive to people to go to the dentist when over 20 million people will be exempted from these charges.

When my right hon. and learned Friend took over the Department, it was open to him to say that he thought that these charges were misconceived. He and I looked at the matter and concluded that what we want to do for the Health Service lies in far more vital areas than preserving an increasingly archaic rule in a world where 60 per cent. of the population is well able to make that payment.

I urge my hon. Friends to bear in mind when they go into the Lobby tonight that the only consequence of the Government failing to carry this measure would be our having to come back with proposals that they would find more unpalatable. It is hardly possible to think of any less damaging way of raising money to make our Health Service even better than to introduce these charges.

This is a great day for the National Health Service, when over £2 billion of extra resources have been won for the service. It will be an even better day for the service if the decision made in the House of Lords is reversed tonight and I therefore urge the House to reverse that decision.

Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment:—

The House divided: Ayes 300, Noes 284.

Division No. 462] [10.07 pm
AYES
Adley, Robert Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)
Aitken, Jonathan Bowis, John
Alexander, Richard Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Brandon-Bravo, Martin
Allason, Rupert Brazier, Julian
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Bright, Graham
Amess, David Brittan, Rt Hon Leon
Amos, Alan Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Arbuthnot, James Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) Browne, John (Winchester)
Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)
Ashby, David Budgen, Nicholas
Aspinwall, Jack Burns, Simon
Atkins, Robert Burt, Alistair
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) Butcher, John
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) Butler, Chris
Baldry, Tony Butterfill, John
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) Carlisle, John, (Luton N)
Batiste, Spencer Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Bellingham, Henry Carrington, Matthew
Bendall, Vivian Cash, William
Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda
Benyon, W. Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Biffen, Rt Hon John Chope, Christopher
Blackburn, Dr John G. Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n)
Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Body, Sir Richard Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)
Boscawen, Hon Robert Conway, Derek
Boswell, Tim Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)
Bottomley, Peter Cope, Rt Hon John
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia Couchman, James
Cran, James Jones, Robert B (Herts W)
Currie, Mrs Edwina Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Curry, David Key, Robert
Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)
Davis, David (Boothferry) King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)
Devlin, Tim Kirkhope, Timothy
Dickens, Geoffrey Knapman, Roger
Dicks, Terry Knight, Greg (Derby North)
Dorrell, Stephen Knowles, Michael
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Dunn, Bob Lang, Ian
Durant, Tony Latham, Michael
Dykes, Hugh Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel
Eggar, Tim Lee, John (Pendle)
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)
Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Fallon, Michael Lightbown, David
Favell, Tony Lilley, Peter
Fenner, Dame Peggy Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey Lord, Michael
Fishburn, John Dudley Luce, Rt Hon Richard
Fookes, Miss Janet Lyell, Sir Nicholas
Forman, Nigel Macfarlane, Sir Neil
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) MacGregor, Rt Hon John
Forth, Eric MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)
Fowler, Rt Hon Norman Maclean, David
Fox, Sir Marcus McLoughlin, Patrick
Franks, Cecil McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael
Freeman, Roger McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)
French, Douglas Major, Rt Hon John
Gale, Roger Malins, Humfrey
Gardiner, George Mans, Keith
Gill, Christopher Maples, John
Glyn, Dr Alan Marland, Paul
Goodlad, Alastair Marlow, Tony
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Gorman, Mrs Teresa Marshall, Michael (Arundel)
Gorst, John Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Gow, Ian Maude, Hon Francis
Gower, Sir Raymond Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW) Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Greenway, John (Ryedale) Mellor, David
Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E') Miller, Sir Hal
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) Miscampbell, Norman
Grist, Ian Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Ground, Patrick Mitchell, David (Hants NW)
Grylls, Michael Moate, Roger
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn Monro, Sir Hector
Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) Moore, Rt Hon John
Hanley, Jeremy Morris, M (N'hampton S)
Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr') Morrison, Rt Hon P (Chester)
Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) Moss, Malcolm
Harris, David Moynihan, Hon Colin
Hayward, Robert Neale, Gerrard
Heathcoat-Amory, David Needham, Richard
Heddle, John Nelson, Anthony
Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. Nicholls, Patrick
Hill, James Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Hind, Kenneth Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley
Hordern, Sir Peter Oppenheim, Phillip
Howard, Michael Page, Richard
Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) Paice, James
Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil
Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Patnick, Irvine
Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) Patten, Chris (Bath)
Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) Patten, John (Oxford W)
Hunt, David (Wirral W) Pawsey, James
Hunter, Andrew Porter, Barry (Wirral S)
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas Porter, David (Waveney)
Irvine, Michael Portillo, Michael
Jack, Michael Price, Sir David
Jackson, Robert Raison, Rt Hon Timothy
Janman, Tim Rathbone, Tim
Jessel, Toby Redwood, John
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey Renton, Tim
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) Rhodes James, Robert
Riddick, Graham Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman
Ridsdale, Sir Julian Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret
Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)
Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Roe, Mrs Marion Thorne, Neil
Rost, Peter Thurnham, Peter
Rumbold, Mrs Angela Townend, John (Bridlington)
Ryder, Richard Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Sackville, Hon Tom Tracey, Richard
Sainsbury, Hon Tim Tredinnick, David
Sayeed, Jonathan Trippier, David
Scott, Nicholas Trotter, Neville
Shaw, David (Dover) Twinn, Dr Ian
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) Viggers, Peter
Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') Waddington, Rt Hon David
Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) Wakeham, Rt Hon John
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Waldegrave, Hon William
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) Walden, George
Shersby, Michael Walker, Bill (T'side North)
Skeet, Sir Trevor Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester)
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) Ward, John
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Soames, Hon Nicholas Warren, Kenneth
Speed, Keith Watts, John
Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W) Wheeler, John
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) Whitney, Ray
Squire, Robin Widdecombe, Ann
Stanbrook, Ivor Wiggin, Jerry
Stanley, Rt Hon John Wilkinson, John
Steen, Anthony Wilshire, David
Stern, Michael Wolfson, Mark
Stevens, Lewis Wood, Timothy
Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) Yeo, Tim
Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) Young, Sir George (Acton)
Stewart, Ian (Hertfordshire N) Younger, Rt Hon George
Sumberg, David
Summerson, Hugo Tellers for the Ayes:
Tapsell, Sir Peter Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones and
Taylor, John M (Solihull) Mr. Michael Neubert.
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Adams, Allen (Paisley N) Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)
Allen, Graham Campbell-Savours, D. N.
Alton, David Canavan, Dennis
Anderson, Donald Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Carttiss, Michael
Armstrong, Hilary Cartwright, John
Ashdown, Paddy Churchill, Mr
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Ashton, Joe Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Atkinson, David Clay, Bob
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Clelland, David
Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich) Cohen, Harry
Barron, Kevin Colvin, Michael
Battle, John Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Beckett, Margaret Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Beggs, Roy Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Beith, A. J. Corbett, Robin
Bell, Stuart Corbyn, Jeremy
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Cousins, Jim
Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish) Crowther, Stan
Bermingham, Gerald Cryer, Bob
Bidwell, Sydney Cummings, John
Blair, Tony Cunliffe, Lawrence
Blunkett, David Cunningham, Dr John
Boateng, Paul Darling, Alistair
Boyes, Roland Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Bradley, Keith Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Bray, Dr Jeremy Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)
Brown, Gordon (D'mline E) Day, Stephen
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E) Dewar, Donald
Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith) Dixon, Don
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) Dobson, Frank
Buchan, Norman Doran, Frank
Buckley, George J. Douglas, Dick
Caborn, Richard Dover, Den
Callaghan, Jim Duffy, A. E. P.
Dunnachie, Jimmy Hood, Jimmy
Eastham, Ken Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Evans, John (St Helens N) Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)
Evennett, David Howells, Geraint
Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E) Hoyle, Doug
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) Hughes, John (Coventry NE)
Fatchett, Derek Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Faulds, Andrew Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Fearn, Ronald Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)
Field, Frank (Birkenhead) Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n) Hume, John
Fisher, Mark Illsley, Eric
Flannery, Martin Janner, Greville
Flynn, Paul John, Brynmor
Foot, Rt Hon Michael Johnston, Sir Russell
Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S) Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Foster, Derek Jones, leuan (Ynys Mön)
Foulkes, George Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W)
Fraser, John Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Fry, Peter Kennedy, Charles
Fyfe, Maria Kilfedder, James
Galbraith, Sam Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil
Galloway, George Kirkwood, Archy
Garrett, John (Norwich South) Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Garrett, Ted (Wallsend) Knox, David
George, Bruce Lambie, David
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John Leadbitter, Ted
Godman, Dr Norman A. Leighton, Ron
Golding, Mrs Llin Lestor, Joan (Eccles)
Gordon, Mildred Lewis, Terry
Gould, Bryan Litherland, Robert
Graham, Thomas Livingstone, Ken
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) Livsey, Richard
Gregory, Conal Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) Lofthouse, Geoffrey
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) Loyden, Eddie
Grocott, Bruce McAllion, John
Hardy, Peter McAvoy, Thomas
Harman, Ms Harriet McCartney, Ian
Haselhurst, Alan McCrea, Rev William
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy McCusker, Harold
Hawkins, Christopher Macdonald, Calum A.
Hayes, Jerry McFall, John
Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney McGrady, Eddie
Haynes, Frank McKelvey, William
Healey, Rt Hon Denis McLeish, Henry
Heffer, Eric S. Maclennan, Robert
Henderson, Doug McNamara, Kevin
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael McTaggart, Bob
Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE) McWilliam, John
Hinchliffe, David Madden, Max
Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) Madel, David
Holland, Stuart Maginnis, Ken
Home Robertson, John Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallon, Seamus Rooker, Jeff
Marek, Dr John Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Marshall, David (Shettleston) Ross, William (Londonderry E)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) Ruddock, Joan
Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) Salmond, Alex
Martlew, Eric Sedgemore, Brian
Maxton, John Sheerman, Barry
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Meacher, Michael Short, Clare
Meale, Alan Skinner, Dennis
Meyer, Sir Anthony Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Michael, Alun Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) Smith, Sir Cyril (Rochdale)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) Snape, Peter
Molyneaux, Rt Hon James Soley, Clive
Moonie, Dr Lewis Spearing, Nigel
Morgan, Rhodri Steel, Rt Hon David
Morley, Elliott Steinberg, Gerry
Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) Stott, Roger
Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) Strang, Gavin
Morrison, Sir Charles Straw, Jack
Mowlam, Marjorie Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Mudd, David Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Mullin, Chris Thomas, Dr Dafydd Elis
Murphy, Paul Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Nellist, Dave Turner, Dennis
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon Vaughan, Sir Gerard
O'Brien, William Vaz, Keith
O'Neill, Martin Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N)
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Wall, Pat
Owen, Rt Hon Dr David Wallace, James
Parry, Robert Waller, Gary
Patchett, Terry Walley, Joan
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth Wareing, Robert N.
Pendry, Tom Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)
Pike, Peter L. Wigley, Dafydd
Powell, Ray (Ogmore) Williams, Rt Hon Alan
Prescott, John Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)
Primarolo, Dawn Wilson, Brian
Quin, Ms Joyce Winnick, David
Radice, Giles Winterton, Mrs Ann
Randall, Stuart Winterton, Nicholas
Redmond, Martin Wise, Mrs Audrey
Reid, Dr John Worthington, Tony
Richardson, Jo Wray, Jimmy
Roberts, Allan (Bootle) Young, David (Bolton SE)
Robertson, George
Robinson, Geoffrey Tellers for the Noes:
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E) Mr. Allen McKay and
Rogers, Allan Mr. Adam Ingram.

Question accordingly agreed to.

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