§ Mr. William RossI beg to move amendment No. 120, in page 1, line 16, leave out 'any self-loading or'.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerWith this we may take amendment No. 119, in page 1, line 16, leave out 'or pump action.'
§ Mr. RossAlthough the two amendments are being taken together, I hope that it will be possible for me to press them to two separate Divisions, as they deal with two rather different matters. Those matters occupied us at length in Committee in regard to Great Britain, but since then the Bill has moved forward, with the result that this 445 part of it is to be applied to Northern Ireland. I, at any rate, feel that it is in the Northern Ireland context that we must discuss it now.
As the House knows, there has been an enormous amount of terrorist murder in Northern Ireland over many years, during which time weapons and explosives of every conceivable type have been used. The one outstanding feature of all those weapons and explosives is that they were all illegal. As a result, people look askance at anyone who seeks to obtain possession of a self-loading or pump-action rifle.
If we are to consider whether people should be allowed to hold such firearms, we should consider very carefully whether they are actively used in crime. The powers already referred to this evening are ever present, hanging like a shadow over our proceedings from the moment of the Bill's conception until now, and they will probably be there until the Bill passes from the ken of the House.
The number of legally held firearms in Northern Ireland that have been used for murder is remarkably small. The number used by their legal owners is smaller still, and of the weapons used, very few have been either semi-automatic rifles of any description or pump-action rifles. We are talking not about .22 rifles, which are excluded from the restrictions imposed by the Bill, but about full-bore rifles. There are not many of them in Northern Ireland and very few of them have been used illegally. In Committee, we embarked upon a learning curve and it is right that we should go through the same process this evening.
§ Mr. CorbettOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member for Londonderry, East (Mr. Ross), but he has a soft voice and it is difficult to hear what he is saying. I wonder whether you, Sir would invite right hon. and hon. Members who have pressing matters to discuss to do it elsewhere.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean)I hope that hon. Members will listen to the hon. Member who has the Floor.
§ Mr. RossI am grateful to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Mr. Corbett) for his support. I had thought that hon. Members who were chatting had finally decided that they would learn something and were discussing my remarks among themselves. After all, we had a great deal of discussion in Committee as we tried to educate those present. The process of self-education was very beneficial in Committee and I hope that it will prove equally beneficial in the House. That is why I tabled the amendment.
If the Government had not been so damn silly as to extend the Bill to Northern Ireland, the amendments would never have been tabled. I thought that the matter was over and done with, but the Government's diabolical decision to extend the legislation to Northern Ireland made it evident to me that we needed to discuss the matter in that context and to give the Government a chance to rethink their foolishness in trying to ban the weapons in the first place. The only known incidents in which a Ryan murders type weapon was used were the Ryan murders; he had two and he used only one.
The self-loading rifle should be left out of the Bill, as should the pump-action rifle. The use and storage of the 446 weapons should be left to the good sense of the gun owners under proper police controls, which are usually exercised very firmly in this country. The fact that the crimes involving such weapons are so few that they cannot be quantified is proof positive that they are no great danger to the community at large.
§ Mr. Douglas HoggI can take this point fairly briefly. In substance we are considering whether the prohibition directed against self-loading and pump action rifles should be excluded from the Bill. We debated that matter extensively on Monday night. The House knows the Government's views on the matter. I know that I do not carry all my hon. Friends with me and I regret that, just as I regret that I do not carry the hon. Member for Londonderry, East (Mr. Ross) with me. It does not seem to me very helpful to go over the ground again, bearing in mind that the House may like to discuss the very important question of the buy-in policy.
I make two points about Northern Ireland. First, my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office outlined both law and practice in very great detail on Monday, and they require no repetition from me. Secondly, the plain fact is that in Northern Ireland people are not entitled by practice to hold self-loading rifles lawfully. Therefore, nothing is being taken away from them that they lawfully possess at the moment. For all those reasons, I invite the House to reject the amendments.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 23, Noes 190.
447| Division No. 331] | [11.44 pm |
| AYES | |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | Michael, Alun |
| Battle, John | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Morgan, Rhodri |
| Buckley, George J. | Murphy, Paul |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Pike, Peter L. |
| Cryer, Bob | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Ross, William (Londonderry E) |
| Dixon, Don | Skinner, Dennis |
| Galbraith, Sam | Spearing, Nigel |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | |
| Haynes, Frank | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W) | Rev. Martin Smyth, and Mr. Roy Beggs. |
| McCusker, Harold | |
| McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) |
| NOES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Bright, Graham |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Brittan, Rt Hon Leon |
| Allason, Rupert | Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) |
| Alton, David | Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) |
| Amess, David | Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick |
| Amos, Alan | Buck, Sir Antony |
| Arbuthnot, James | Burt, Alistair |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Butler, Chris |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) |
| Ashby, David | Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) |
| Atkinson, David | Carrington, Matthew |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Carttiss, Michael |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Cash, William |
| Baldry, Tony | Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda |
| Batiste, Spencer | Clark, Dr David (S Shields) |
| Bellingham, Henry | Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Cope, John |
| Benyon, W. | Cran, James |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Currie, Mrs Edwina |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Day, Stephen |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Devlin, Tim |
| Boswell, Tim | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Brazier, Julian | Dover, Den |
| Dunn, Bob | Maude, Hon Francis |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Evennett, David | Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick |
| Fallon, Michael | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Farr, Sir John | Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) |
| Favell, Tony | Miller, Hal |
| Fenner, Dame Peggy | Mills, Iain |
| Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
| Forman, Nigel | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Forth, Eric | Morris, M (N'hampton S) |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Norman | Moss, Malcolm |
| Fox, Sir Marcus | Moynihan, Hon Colin |
| Franks, Cecil | Neubert, Michael |
| Freeman, Roger | Nicholls, Patrick |
| French, Douglas | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Gorst, John | Page, Richard |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Paice, James |
| Gregory, Conal | Patten, John (Oxford W) |
| Ground, Patrick | Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Portillo, Michael |
| Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Harris, David | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Hawkins, Christopher | Renton, Tim |
| Hayward, Robert | Rhodes James, Robert |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Riddick, Graham |
| Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) | Rowe, Andrew |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Ryder, Richard |
| Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Howells, Geraint | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Hunt, David (Wirral W) | Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) |
| Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Irvine, Michael | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Jack, Michael | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Jessel, Toby | Speed, Keith |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Jones, Robert B (Herts W) | Stern, Michael |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Stevens, Lewis |
| Kennedy, Charles | Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) | Stradling Thomas, Sir John |
| King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater) | Summerson, Hugo |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Knapman, Roger | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) | Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) |
| Knowles, Michael | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Knox, David | Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) |
| Lang, Ian | Tracey, Richard |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Tredinnick, David |
| Lee, John (Pendle) | Trotter, Neville |
| Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Twinn. Dr Ian |
| Lightbown, David | Walden, George |
| Lilley, Peter | Walker, Bill (T'side North) |
| Livsey, Richard | Wallace, James |
| Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant) | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Lord, Michael | Watts, John |
| Luce, Rt Hon Richard | Wells, Bowen |
| Macfarlane, Sir Neil | Wheeler, John |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Maclean, David | Wilkinson, John |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) | Wilshire, David |
| Madel, David | Wood, Timothy |
| Malins, Humfrey | |
| Mans, Keith | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Mr. Tony Durant and Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd. |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker(Sir Paul Dean)I understand that the hon. Member for Londonderry, East(Mr.Ross) would like a separate Division on amendment No. 119. Is that correct?
§ Mr. William RossYes
§ Amendment proposed: No.119, in page 1, line 16, leave out 'or pump action.'—[Mr. William Ross.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 21, Noes 190.
449| Division No. 332] | [11.55 pm |
| AYES | |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) |
| Battle, John | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Morgan, Rhodri |
| Buckley, George J. | Pike, Peter L. |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Cryer, Bob | Ross, William (Londonderry E) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Skinner, Dennis |
| Dixon, Don | Spearing, Nigel |
| Galbraith, Sam | |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Haynes, Frank | Rev. Martin Smyth and Mr. Roy Beggs. |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W) | |
| McCusker, Harold |
| NOES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Allason, Rupert | Forman, Nigel |
| Alton, David | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Amess, David | Forth, Eric |
| Amos, Alan | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Arbuthnot, James | Fox, Sir Marcus |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Franks, Cecil |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Freeman, Roger |
| Ashby, David | French, Douglas |
| Atkinson, David | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Gorst, John |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Baldry, Tony | Gregory, Conal |
| Batiste, Spencer | Ground, Patrick |
| Bellingham, Henry | Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Benyon, W. | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Harris, David |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Hawkins, Christopher |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Hayward, Robert |
| Boswell, Tim | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Brazier, Julian | Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) |
| Bright, Graham | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) |
| Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) | Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Howells, Geraint |
| Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick | Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Hunt, David (Wirral W) |
| Burt, Alistair | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Butler, Chris | Irvine, Michael |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Jack, Michael |
| Carlisle, John, (Luton N) | Jessel, Toby |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Carrington, Matthew | Jones, Robert B (Herts W) |
| Carttiss, Michael | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Cash, William | Kennedy, Charles |
| Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda | King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) | King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Cope, John | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Cran, James | Knapman, Roger |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) |
| Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) | Knowles, Michael |
| Day, Stephen | Knox, David |
| Devlin, Tim | Lang, Ian |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Dover, Den | Lee, John (Pendle) |
| Dunn, Bob | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Durant, Tony | Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) | Lilley, Peter |
| Evennett, David | Livsey, Richard |
| Fallon, Michael | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| Farr, Sir John | Lord, Michael |
| Favell, Tony | Luce, Rt Hon Richard |
| Macfarlane, Sir Neil | Ryder, Richard |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Maclean, David | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Madel, David | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Malins, Humfrey | Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) |
| Mans, Keith | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Maude, Hon Francis | Speed, Keith |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Stern, Michael |
| Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick | Stevens, Lewis |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) | Stradling Thomas, Sir John |
| Miller, Hal | Summerson, Hugo |
| Mills, Iain | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Monro, Sir Hector | Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Morris, M (N'hampton S) | Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) |
| Moss, Malcolm | Tracey, Richard |
| Moynihan, Hon Colin | Tredinnick, David |
| Neubert, Michael | Trotter, Neville |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Walden, George |
| Oppenheim, Phillip | Walker, Bill (Tside North) |
| Page, Richard | Wallace, James |
| Paice, James | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Patten, John (Oxford W) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Watts, John |
| Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Wells, Bowen |
| Porter, David (Waveney) | Wheeler, John |
| Portillo, Michael | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Wilkinson, John |
| Raison, Rt Hon Timothy | Wilshire, David |
| Renton, Tim | Wood, Timothy |
| Rhodes James, Robert | |
| Riddick, Graham | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) | Mr. David Lightbown and Mr. Stephen Dorrell. |
| Rowe, Andrew |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Mr. Douglas HoggI beg to move amendment No. 31, in page 1, line 17 leave out from 'cartridges' to end of line 18.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerWith this it will be convenient to take the following: Government amendment No. 33.
Amendment No. 8, in page 1, line 23, leave out
'or which was manufactured before'and insert'and which was manufactured after'.Amendment No. 131, in page 1, line 23 leave out 'before' and insert 'after'.
§ Mr. HoggThese amendments are important. Their object is to delete from the Bill the amendment made in Committee to the effect that guns made before 1 January 1939 should not be caught by the ban. I refer to self-loading rifles and related weapons.
I cannot commend the amendment made in Committee. There is no obvious justification for the date chosen. Guns made before I January 1939 are just as lethal as those made thereafter. I have already explained that I think there is no justification for such weapons anyway. Moreover, the burden on the police of trying to decide whether a gun was made before 1 January 1939 and is thus permitted, or after that date and is thus prohibited, makes no sense. On that basis I invite the House to support the Government amendments.
§ Sir Hector MonroI do not accept that the amendment should be made. My hon. Friend should realise that this is the eighth of 37 debates, and his wish to get on with 450 compensation is impossible. If he wanted to discuss compensation he could have tabled a Government amendment to give us an opportunity to do so. That merely highlights the iniquity of the guillotine motion.
Everything in the amendment will be overtaken if we debate the next amendment in detail. It deals with self-loading rifles, so it would seem better to agree to this amendment and move on to the next group so as to save time. However, I do not want my hon. Friend to leave the House thinking that I agree with what he has said.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 174, Noes 42.
451| Division No. 333] | [12.8 am |
| AYES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Gregory, Conal |
| Allason, Rupert | Ground, Patrick |
| Amess, David | Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) |
| Amos, Alan | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Arbuthnot, James | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Harris, David |
| Ashby, David | Hawkins, Christopher |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Hayward, Robert |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Baldry, Tony | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) |
| Benyon, W. | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Hunt, David (Wirral W) |
| Boswell, Tim | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Irvine, Michael |
| Bowis, John | Jack, Michael |
| Brazier, Julian | Jessel, Toby |
| Bright, Graham | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Jones, Robert B (Herts W) |
| Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Buck, Sir Antony | King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) |
| Burt, Alistair | King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Butler, Chris | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Carlisle, John, (Luton N) | Knapman, Roger |
| Carrington, Matthew | Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) |
| Carttiss, Michael | Knowles, Michael |
| Cash, William | Knox, David |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) | Lang, Ian |
| Cope, John | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Cran, James | Lee, John (Pendle) |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) | Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) |
| Day, Stephen | Lightbown, David |
| Devlin, Tim | Lilley, Peter |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| Dover, Den | Lord, Michael |
| Dunn, Bob | Luce, Rt Hon Richard |
| Durant, Tony | Macfarlane, Sir Neil |
| Emery, Sir Peter | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) | Maclean, David |
| Evennett, David | McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) |
| Fallon, Michael | Madel, David |
| Farr, Sir John | Malins, Humfrey |
| Favell, Tony | Mans, Keith |
| Fenner, Dame Peggy | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
| Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
| Forman, Nigel | Maude, Hon Francis |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Forth, Eric | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Norman | Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick |
| Fox, Sir Marcus | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Franks, Cecil | Miller, Hal |
| Freeman, Roger | Mills, Iain |
| French, Douglas | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Morris, M (N'hampton S) |
| Gorst, John | Moss, Malcolm |
| Moynihan, Hon Colin | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Neubert, Michael | Speed, Keith |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Stern, Michael |
| Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Stevens, Lewis |
| Oppenheim, Phillip | Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) |
| Page, Richard | Summerson, Hugo |
| Paice, James | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Patten, John (Oxford W) | Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) |
| Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) |
| Porter, David (Waveney) | Tracey, Richard |
| Portillo, Michael | Trotter, Neville |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Raison, Rt Hon Timothy | Walden, George |
| Renton, Tim | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Warren, Kenneth |
| Riddick, Graham | Watts, John |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) | Wells, Bowen |
| Rowe, Andrew | Wheeler, John |
| Ryder, Richard | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Shaw, David (Dover) | Wilkinson, John |
| Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) | Wilshire, David |
| Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') | Wood, Timothy |
| Shelton, William (Streatham) | |
| Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Mr. Kenneth Carlisle and Mr. Stephen Dorrell. |
| Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| NOES | |
| Alton, David | McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | Michael, Alun |
| Battle, John | Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) |
| Beggs, Roy | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
| Bellingham, Henry | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Morgan, Rhodri |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Pike, Peter L. |
| Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Buckley, George J. | Ross, William (Londonderry E) |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Salmond, Alex |
| Corbett, Robin | Skinner, Dennis |
| Cryer, Bob | Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Dixon, Don | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) | Walker, Bill (T'side North) |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Wallace, James |
| Henderson, Doug | Welsh, Andrew (Angus E) |
| Howells, Geraint | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn) | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W) | |
| Kennedy, Charles | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Livsey, Richard | Mr. Frank Haynes and Mr. Frank Cook. |
| McCusker, Harold |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Sir Hector Monro (Dumfries)I beg to move amendment No. 91, in page 1, line 17, after 'cartridges', insert
'or the magazine of which is incapable of holding more than five rounds'
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker)With this it will be convenient to consider the following amendments: No. 128, in page 1, line 18, at end insert
'or which has an integal or detachable magazine the maximum capacity of which is not more than eight cartridges and the detachable magazine and/or rifle—No. 129, in page 1, line I S, at end insert
- (a) bears a mark which has been approved by the Secretary of State for denoting that fact and which has been made either by one of the two companies mentioned in section 58(1) of the principal Act or by such other person as may be approved by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this section, and
- (b) that company or person has certified in writing that the magazine was initially so manufactured or that work has been carried out on the magazine in a manner approved by the Secretary of State as to
452 render it incapable of storing or containing more than eight cartridges of the calibre for which it was designed, manufactured or modified.'. 'or which has an integral or detachable magazine the maximum capacity of which is not more than ten cartridges and the detachable magazine and/or rifle—
- (a) bears a mark which has been approved by the Secretary of State for denoting that fact and which has been made either by one of the two companies mentioned in section 58(1) of the principal Act or by such other person as may be approved by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this section, and
- (b) that company or person has certified in writing that the magazine was initially so manufactured or that work has been carried out on the magazine in a manner approved by the Secretary of State as to render it incapable of storing or containing more than ten cartridges of the calibre for which it was designed, manufactured or modified.'.
§ Sir Hector MonroWe now come to the most important amendment and the last opportunity for the Government to redeem themselves in the eyes of hundreds of thousands of sportsmen, including target shooters, game shooters and clay pigeon shooters. Amendment No. 91, provides an opportunity for the Government to show that they understand firearms legislation and are not just bulldozing such legislation through the House irrespective of the arguments that they have lost with regularity throughout the passage of the Bill.
I have referred to self-loading rifles many times, so I shall not go into details now as my hon. Friends want to highlight the importance of the amendment. There are two matters on which I want answers from my hon. Friend the Minister tonight. The first, to which my hon. Friend the Minister has refused to respond so far, is about the disabled. Will my hon. Friend explain why the Government support the Sports Council and the Central Council for Physical Recreation and do everything to encourage recreation and sport for the disabled, yet turn their backs on the disabled in the matter of rifle shooting? [Interruption.]
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. Will hon. Members who wish to hold private conversations please do so outside the Chamber? I am trying to follow the hon. Gentleman's speech.
§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)On a point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is important to get things in the right perspective. We were discussing the possible result of the Bill going to another place. I was saying that when Lord Whitelaw——
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. If the hon. Gentleman wants to do that he should do it outside the Chamber. Matters for debate should be raised in the Chamber. The hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) has the Floor. He is entitled to be heard and I need to listen to him.
§ Sir Hector MonroI hope that my hon. Friend will respond also to my point about women. We have raised this issue frequently because many women find it impossible to use bolt-action rifles because of the kick and the difficulty of operating the action. As the Government appear dedicated to dealing with sex discrimination, will my hon. Friend tell us why he is preventing women from enjoying the sport of shooting with a full-bore rifle?
453 One of the more damaging arguments that my hon. Friend must answer relates to his attitude to the five-round integral magazine weapon, which we have talked about in great detail. Under the proposal there would be no more than five rounds in the magazine. Some magazines would hold only four, some three. It would be impossible to have large or detachable magazines. This would apply to the type of action, not to the volume of fire, because a 10-round bolt-action rifle, if it is well operated, can produce more fire power than five rounds in a self-loading rifle.
The Minister keeps returning to his argument—and in doing so sounds like an old 78 gramophone record—that the proposal is unnecessary because there is not an enormous number of rifles currently being manufactured. The point is that there is a significant number of fixed magazine rifles in production and I have given my hon. Friend their names. If those rifles became the only legal type available in this country, manufacturers would produce more of them. Surely my hon. Friend is not trying to prevent the production of weapons. He seems to be excited about the type of weapon.
My hon. Friend must answer those points. Many hon. Members want to raise other issues and we have less than 30 minutes left. I have spoken on this matter at length because it is something about which I feel very strongly. The amendment offers my hon. Friend the last opportunity to bring some common sense into a very bad Bill.
§ Mr. ColvinI will not detain the House for long. It was significant to note that in the last Division 174 Members voted on the Government's side, out of a total vote of 356 Conservatives. Perhaps the fact that fewer than half the Government's supporters turned out on a three-line Whip shows the lack of support on the Conservative Benches for those measures. It also shows the lack of support for being here at this early hour with so many amendments still to be debated and so little time to discuss them. I support my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro).
The Government's lack of understanding about the five-round integral magazine rifle is demonstrated by the White Paper that was published in December. That defined the rifles that would be added to the prohibited list under section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968. It referred to SLRs and pump-action rifles, but it did not make any specifications about the number of rounds. I have searched the White Paper to see if I can find any reference to five rounds but nothing is said. A lot is said however, about those military SLRs, of which Kalashnikovs are one example.
§ Mr. SkinnerWhen I was discussing this matter earlier with my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Mr. Cunliffe) we talked about the gunslingers in the other place cleaning up the Bill. Why are Conservative Members getting worked up about this, when they know that there are several hundred in the other place who are only too anxious to get hold of the Bill and sort it out—especially Lord Whitelaw? I made inquiries as to whether he was using a five-rounder on the day he was running the country during the miners' strike. The Prime Minister had gone to Switzerland to count her money or to deal with Nestlé or 454 whatever. When Lord Whitelaw went on the grouse moor for the first time that day he happened to shoot two fellers. What gun did he use?
§ Mr. ColvinThe hon. Member for Bolsover has made a valid point—it is the finger on the trigger that counts, not the weapon. The Government are trying to ban certain weapons but that will do nothing to reduce the amount of armed crime.
Paragraph 47 of the White Paper refers to compensation and states:
We have concluded that as a matter of principle it is undesirable and unjust to require the taxpayer at large to pay for the removal from the public domain of weapons which are an acknowledged threat to life.The Government are arguing that the five-round SLR, with an integral magazine for those rounds, is a threat to human life. I do not believe that. I have asked the Under-Secretary before, and I ask again, how many crimes have been committed with SLRs with only five rounds?
§ Mr. Menzies Campbell (Fife, North-East)Throughout the unhappy course of the Bill, the hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) has been notable by his sensible suggestions and by his constructive comments about the proposed legislation. Yet again he has demonstrated that good sense by his brief contribution to the debate.
I support everything that the hon. Gentleman has said. The views that he has expressed have support in other parts of the House than the Government Back Benches.
§ Mr. Buchanan-SmithI support my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro). The Minister should reconsider the argument and accept the amendment. I discussed SLRs on Second Reading and I am sorry that the Government have acted as they have.
My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries mentioned two categories of people who use SLRs—the disabled, and women who wish to use rifles. In Scotland there is a great deal of afforestation and another category of user who has come to my notice is those people who use SLRs to control vermin. With the first shot, vermin may just be wounded and the advantage of a SLR is that a second shot can be fired quickly. In a densely wooded area, as opposed to an open hill, there is not the opportunity to dispatch vermin, without suffering on the first shot. Therefore, there a humane reason for considering such users. The Minister should consider this third category, whose argument has been put forcibly by those with direct experience of the control of vermin.
§ Mr. BellinghamI do not plan to detain the House for more than half a minute, but I was on the Standing Committee when the matter was discussed in some detail. We raised this point at considerable length, in terms of the disabled, women and young people and in terms of the humane aspect, which has just been mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kincardine and Deeside (Mr. Buchanan-Smith), of the importance of shooting the second round very quickly during deer culling or vermin control.
I remind my hon. Friend the Minister that there was a strong possibility of a vote against clause 1 stand part. After some discussions, he told the Committee that he would consider seriously whether it would be right to leave in section 1 integral magazine self-loading guns. He went on at some length, and said: 455
Therefore, there is a case for that limited range of rifles, but a wholly different argument applies to the large magazine guns."—[Official Report, Standing Committee F, 8 March 1988; c. 326.]12.30 amOn 8 March, the Minister said that he would consider the matter sympathetically and seriously. He used that quote from Hansard on Monday evening in response to my comments. He was less robust two days later, but I remind him that on 8 March he promised to look at it very carefully and seriously. On that basis, I and my colleagues on the Committee agreed to support him on clause I stand part. Had he not given that undertaking, we would have voted against him and won. Therefore, I urge him to look again at the matter with consideration for the quasi-commitment and to think in terms of the damage that could be done through legitimate sport to disabled people, young people and women.
§ Mr. William RossThe amendments in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) deal with this matter. My right hon. Friend says that he is not a shooter; he had enough to do with it during the war. I tabled the amendments so that the Minister could consider—if he is not past considering—what can be done to help practical shooting organisations in this country.
I am not sure what practical shooters do, but I do know that they use semi-automatic rifles. The only time that I have fired a semi-automatic rifle at a target was when I fired a course with the Ulster Defence Regiment. They thought that they were pretty good, and I had never used a semi-automatic before. I am happy to report to the House that this old ex-B man beat the whole blooming lot. That gave me a great deal of pleasure, but also worried me about the outcome of the conflict as the UDR were on my side. I hope that they have improved since. Perhaps I beat the raw recruits that day.
The two amendments are exactly the same, except that one refers to 8 cartridges and the other to 10. I understand from the practical shooters that a 10 cartridge magazine is quite sufficient for their purposes. However, the Minister has shown no willingness to meet the needs of that group of sportsmen, and I consider that he should think again very seriously.
The amendments show that if the Government are prepared to be sensible, it is possible to use a detachable magazine with which the rifle would be a legal weapon. If it went beyond the stated capacity, it would become an illegal weapon, and no reputable gun dealer would sell such a weapon, nor would any reputable club allow such a weapon to be used on its ranges.
The matter has been raised in the context of deactivation of weapons. When the Government were laying down the rule that a gun would have to be marked that it was completely deactivated, there is no reason why a gun or the magazine should not be marked or individually licensed on the permit for such use. If that could be done, there would be no problem. It removes the problem of the large capacity magazine on which the Minister dwelt so much on Monday night.
The Minister's understanding of large capacity and the shooters' understanding of large capacity seem to differ widely. The Minister is considering the full 30-round 456 military magazine. That is what he means by a large capacity magazine. I am talking about something one third of that.
In Committee, the Minister kindly took us to a certain establishment not all that far from here and demonstrated weapons to us. Those who went will remember clearly that he demonstrated that a five-shot shotgun could not keep up over about 20 rounds with an ordinary double-barrelled shotgun. What holds true for a double-barrelled shotgun as opposed to a five-shot automatic shotgun holds true for the limited capacity semi-automatic rifle, and well the Minister knows it. That is the reality. The plain truth is that if the Minister were not so blind to reality and so determined to go down this silly road, he would accept the amendment, or something very like it. He knows perfectly well that it is reasonable and practical.
I understand that it is possible to buy a silencer for a 410 shotgun. As long as it is on the shotgun, I understand that it is legal. The same silencer will fit the 45 Colt automatic pistol and that would be a highly illegal weapon. The Minister must try to understand the technicalities of these things. He must put his mind to them and come to understand the problems that are associated with these technical matters. Once he has done that we might start to make some reasonable and sensible progress.
The amendments meet the needs of the sporting world and the Government's purposes. They are perfectly satisfactory and I hope that the Minister will say that he is prepared to think again, rather than fooling on in the way that he has been.
§ Mr. Bill Walker (Tayside, North)I rise to speak for the first time in the many debates on the Bill and I do so to support my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro).
As hon. Members will know, I have a 2,000 square mile constituency and hundreds of square miles in my constituency contain forests. In those forests are many vermin which have to be controlled. There is no question but that the people who understand and know about these matters fail to understand why the Government cannot see that the use of firearms is a legitimate way of controlling vermin, a proper way, and, more importantly, a humane way to do so.
If the amendment is not accepted this evening, the people who will be upset and distressed are, without exception, Conservative supporters, and they will wonder quite what the Government are about. They realise that the Government are, quite properly, concerned with the activities that go on in the cities, but equally they must understand what goes on in the country, and, in particular, in the highland areas of Scotland where we have to control vermin which can do enormous damage to the crops and everything else. Unless they are kept under control, we shall find ourselves with huge problems and many establishments and homes will be put at risk because they will not be able to control vermin as effectively as they have done in the past. That could affect the economics of what at present is a marginal——
§ Sir John FarrWill my hon. Friend explain exactly what he means by vermin?
§ Mr. WalkerI mean all types of vermin, including deer. There is no question but that deer are a big problem to us in the highlands of Scotland. Anyone who disagrees will be 457 welcome to come to my constituency. I shall be able to take them to see the many deer wandering around close to my home.
§ Mr. Douglas HoggMy hon. Friend the Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) argued that it is necessary to have a small capacity self-loading rifle to deal with vermin. Within the definition of the word "vermin", he includes deer. I do not agree with him. I have before me, for example, a letter from the chairman of the British Deer Society, on which I addressed the Committee.
The chairman of that society wrote to my hon. Friend the member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) and dealt in some detail with my hon. Friend's assertion that a self-loading rifle is necessary for the killing of deer. He wrote:
I have taken great trouble to find out the extent to which these rifles"—that is to say, self-loading rifles—are used for deer management. I have spoken to the chairman of the Forestry Commission and the chairman of the Red Deer Commission, both of whom are happy with the British Deer Society position, which is that there is no heavyweight argument for these weapons to be used for deer management.He continues:As far as I can discover, it is simply not true that many roe stalkers throughout the United Kingdom use five shot, self-loading rifles. Even if they do the society would argue that the art of deer management is to stalk into the beast that you wish to kill and place one well-aimed shot to kill that animal immediately.People who have studied this matter at some length and who represent the interests of those who act in this sport do not believe—I repeat, do not believe—that a self-loading rifle is necessary, or even desirable, for the purposes to which my hon. Friend referred.It is extremely difficult to believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Tayside, North is right when he says that the only suitable weapon for the killing of vermin—by which I assume he means foxes, grey squirrels, and the like—is a self-loading rifle. Those of us who have spent most of our lives shooting vermin have used other weapons perfectly satisfactorily—such as a shotgun or a small rim fire 22, which for these purposes can even be a self-loading rim fire 22.
§ Mr. HoggI am told to finish this. My hon. Friend may not like it, but I am going to do so.
The idea that one needs a self-loading rifle of the kind that is designed for military purposes to shoot vermin is simply preposterous.
§ Mr. Frank CookDoes the Minister recall the occasion in Committee when I presented a letter from a farmer of many years' experience? That letter was accompanied by a photograph of the fox which that farmer had shot the previous Wednesday night and which was badly afflicted with mange. A fox has very quick reactions, and when firing at a fox from some distance it is essential that one's gun has the capacity not only to loose off a second shot, but also a third if necessary. The alternative is to leave the animal, disease-ridden as it may be, to limp around the countryside in great pain and suffering. Does the Minister 458 accept that that letter came from an expert who has spent a lifetime on the land and who knows what he is talking about? Is his opinion not to be respected?
§ Mr. HoggThe comments of the hon. Member for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook) illustrate why the arguments in favour of this amendment are so bad. First, is it really right that people should be banging away many times with self-loading rifles? They may very well be doing it near their neighbours, near a road, near a village, or near other people picnicking in a field.
§ Mr. ColvinWill my hon. Friend give way?
§ Mr. HoggNo, I shall not give way for the moment.
Secondly, the basic rule that I would commend to anyone who goes out shooting is to make sure that he is close enough to his target to kill it with the first shot, instead of shooting from a distance, or—as my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North-West (Mr. Bellingham) suggested—shooting at foxes at night with a self-loading rifle with night sights. That sort of thing makes no sense at all.
§ Mr. ColvinInadvertently, my hon. Friend the Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) has given the Minister an escape route down which he is running as fast as he can. Will he please forget about this digression on vermin and address himself to the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) and myself, which are far more pertinent?
§ Mr. HoggI do not suppose that my hon. Friend the Member for Tayside, North would like the cavalier way in which his hon. Friend has described his argument. I was taking that argument seriously, as my hon. Friend the Member for Tayside, North expected me to. Incidentally, it is extremely similar to the argument put by my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North-West, and identical to that put earlier this evening by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kincardine and Deeside (Mr. Buchanan-Smith). The latter made the point very plainly that he needs his guns for deer shooting. He is not—and this is the point that I am making—supported by the hairman of the British Deer Society.
§ Mr. Michael Fallon (Darlington)Is it not true that a Scot who requires five rounds to kill a deer is neither a good shot nor a good Scot?
§ Mr. HoggI confess that I very much wish that I had thought of such an elegant way of expressing a criticism that I must say I feel.
§ Sir Hector MonroIt is very disappointing that we are about to run out of time and my hon. Friend the Minister still will not answer the points about disability or women. Will he please do so now?
§ Mr. HoggMy hon. Friend really must expect me to deal with the issues that have been put before the House, and I am doing that.
Another point made from time to time by various hon. Members is that many rifles of this kind are available on the market. That is simply not true. I had this carefully checked. There are six rifles—I am excluding derivatives—known to the forensic services at Huntington which contain no more than five shots in an integral magazine.
459 One, and only one, is in production. We are being asked, as I understand it, to legislate against the possibility that someone, at some unspecified time, in respect of a limited market—namely, this country—will try to devise a self-loading rifle that falls within the category and would be certified as such by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
The idea that numerous people possess these limited self-loading rifles is an illusion, if only because they do not exist in great numbers. What my hon. Friends want is something different. They want a larger self-loading rifle. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries wants the Garand. [HON. MEMBERS: "He is wriggling."] I am not wriggling. I am concentrating on the essential issues. My hon. Friend wants the eight-shot Garand, and everything that he has argued tonight is a stalking horse for that proposition. He is not particularly interested in the five-shot integral magazine.
§ Sir Hector MonroMay I ask my hon. Friend to respond to the amendment, which does not deal with anything more than five rounds?
§ Mr. HoggMy hon. Friend is not correct. There are three amendments before us. I recommend that he reads amendment No. 128, for example, which refers specifically to eight cartridges in the magazine. We are dealing with a variety of guns—five-shot and eight-shot, on which I am concentrating. My hon. Friend knows that the Garand is an eight-shot, which is why he wants it. The question about women and the disabled is a stalking horse for the eight-shot Garand——
§ Mr. Gerald Bermingham (St. Helens, South)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have sat patiently listening to the debate on the fundamental question of the disabled and women, for which debate I came into the Chamber specifically.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker)Order. What is the point of order?
§ Mr. BerminghamThe hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) made his point succinctly and clearly. The Minister, on the other hand, spent half his time——
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. That is not a matter for me. Mr. Douglas Hogg.
§ Mr. BerminghamMay I complete my point of order, Sir. It is a matter of courtesy——
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I am here to deal not with points of courtesy but with points of order.
§ Mr. HoggI was talking about the eight-shot Garand, because that is the subject of one of the amendments in this group.
§ Mr. BerminghamWhy does the Minister not speak to the House, rather than to his Back Benchers?
§ Mr. HoggIt is usual to address the Chair, which is what I am doing at the moment, as you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, will have observed. From time to time I address my hon. Friends, and I address Opposition Members, too.
There is no reason to suppose that women and the disabled use the limited shot self-loading rifle, if only because such rifles do not exist in large numbers. We have considered carefully whether we could define disability in a meaningful way. We have to wrestle with the question of 460 a discretion that would be given in any event to chief constables. We have concluded that it is not possible to extend a concession only to those—
§ It being five hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion relating to the Firearms (Amendment) Bill (Allocation of Time), MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the order this day, to put the Question already proposed from the Chair.
§ The House divided: Ayes 42, Noes 171.
461| Division No. 334] | [12.52 am |
| AYES | |
| Alton, David | McCusker, Harold |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) |
| Battle, John | Michael, Alun |
| Beggs, Roy | Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick | Pike, Peter L. |
| Buckley, George J. | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Ross, William (Londonderry E) |
| Colvin, Michael | Salmond, Alex |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Corbett, Robin | Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) |
| Cryer, Bob | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Dixon, Don | Walker, Bill (T'side North) |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) | Wallace, James |
| Galbraith, Sam | Walley, Joan |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Welsh, Andrew (Angus E) |
| Haynes, Frank | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Howells, Geraint | |
| Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Kennedy, Charles | Mr. Jerry Wiggin and Mr. Henry Bellingham. |
| Livsey, Richard |
| NOES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Dunn, Bob |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Durant, Tony |
| Allason, Rupert | Emery, Sir Peter |
| Amess, David | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) |
| Amos, Alan | Evennett, David |
| Arbuthnot, James | Fallon, Michael |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Farr, Sir John |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Favell, Tony |
| Ashby, David | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
| Atkinson, David | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Forman, Nigel |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Baldry, Tony | Forth, Eric |
| Batiste, Spencer | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Fox, Sir Marcus |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Franks, Cecil |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Freeman, Roger |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | French, Douglas |
| Boswell, Tim | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Gorst, John |
| Bowls, John | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Brazier, Julian | Gregory, Conal |
| Bright, Graham | Ground, Patrick |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Burt, Alistair | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Carlisle, John, (Luton N) | Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Harris, David |
| Carrington, Matthew | Hawkins, Christopher |
| Carttiss, Michael | Hayward, Robert |
| Cash, William | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) | Heddle, John |
| Cope, John | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Cran, James | Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) | Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) |
| Day, Stephen | Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) |
| Devlin, Tim | Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Hunt, David (Wirral W) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Dover, Den | Irvine, Michael |
| Jack, Michael | Paice, James |
| Jessel, Toby | Patten, John (Oxford W) |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Jones, Robert B (Herts W) | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Portillo, Michael |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Knapman, Roger | Riddick, Graham |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Knowles, Michael | Rowe, Andrew |
| Knox, David | Ryder, Richard |
| Lang, Ian | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Lee, John (Pendle) | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) |
| Lightbown, David | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Lilley, Peter | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Lord, Michael | Speed, Keith |
| Luce, Rt Hon Richard | Stern, Michael |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Stevens, Lewis |
| Maclean, David | Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) | Summerson, Hugo |
| Madel, David | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Malins, Humfrey | Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) |
| Mans, Keith | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Tracey, Richard |
| Maude, Hon Francis | Trotter, Neville |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick | Walden, George |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Miller, Hal | Warren, Kenneth |
| Mills, Iain | Watts, John |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Wells, Bowen |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Wheeler, John |
| Morris, M (N'hampton S) | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Moss, Malcolm | Wilkinson, John |
| Moynihan, Hon Colin | Wilshire, David |
| Nelson, Anthony | Wood, Timothy |
| Neubert, Michael | |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Mr. Robert Boscawen and Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones. |
| Oppenheim, Phillip | |
| Page, Richard |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerDo I have the leave of the House to put together all the outstanding Government amendments?
§ Mr. ColvinOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for all the remaining Government amendments—there are 47 still on the Order Paper—to be swept through on the nod as if they were—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I only asked a question. Does any hon. Member wish to divide the House on any Government amendment, and if so, on which ones——
§ MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the Business to be concluded at that hour.
§
Amendment proposed: No. 32, in page 1, line 19, at end insert
`is not chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges and'.—[Mr. Douglas Hogg.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 167, Noes 35.
463| Division No. 335] | [1.05 am |
| AYES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Hunt, David (Wirral W) |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Allason, Rupert | Irvine, Michael |
| Amess, David | Jack, Michael |
| Amos, Alan | Jessel, Toby |
| Arbuthnot, James | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Jones, Robert B (Herts W) |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Ashby, David | King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) |
| Atkinson, David | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Knapman, Roger |
| Baldry, Tony | Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) |
| Batiste, Spencer | Knowles, Michael |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Knox, David |
| Bellingham, Henry | Lang, Ian |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Lee, John (Pendle) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Boswell, Tim | Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Lightbown, David |
| Bowis, John | Lilley, Peter |
| Brazier, Julian | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| Bright, Graham | Lord, Michael |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Maclean, David |
| Burt, Alistair | McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) |
| Carlisle, John, (Luton N) | Madel, David |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Malins, Humfrey |
| Carrington, Matthew | Mans, Keith |
| Cash, William | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
| Cope, John | Maude, Hon Francis |
| Cran, James | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) | Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick |
| Day, Stephen | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Devlin, Tim | Miller, Hal |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Mills, Iain |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
| Dover, Den | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Dunn, Bob | Morris, M (N'hampton S) |
| Durant, Tony | Moss, Malcolm |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Moynihan, Hon Colin |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) | Nelson, Anthony |
| Fallon, Michael | Neubert, Michael |
| Farr, Sir John | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Favell, Tony | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Fenner, Dame Peggy | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Page, Richard |
| Forman, Nigel | Paice, James |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Patten, John (Oxford W) |
| Forth, Eric | Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Norman | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Fox, Sir Marcus | Portillo, Michael |
| Franks, Cecil | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Freeman, Roger | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| French, Douglas | Riddick, Graham |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Rowe, Andrew |
| Gorst, John | Ryder, Richard |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Gregory, Conal | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Ground, Patrick | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Harris, David | Speed, Keith |
| Hawkins, Christopher | Stern, Michael |
| Hayward, Robert | Stevens, Lewis |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) |
| Heddle, John | Summerson, Hugo |
| Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) | Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) | Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) |
| Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) | Tracey, Richard |
| Trotter, Neville | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Twinn, Dr Ian | Wilkinson, John |
| Waddington, Rt Hon David | Wilshire, David |
| Walden, George | Wood, Timothy |
| Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) | |
| Warren, Kenneth | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Watts, John | Mr. Robert Boscawen and Mr. Alan Howarth. |
| Wells, Bowen | |
| Wheeler, John |
| NOES | |
| Alton, David | Livsey, Richard |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | McCusker, Harold |
| Battle, John | McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) |
| Beggs, Roy | Michael, Alun |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
| Buckley, George J. | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Ross, William (Londonderry E) |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Salmond, Alex |
| Corbett, Robin | Skinner, Dennis |
| Cryer, Bob | Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Dixon, Don | Wallace, James |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) | Welsh, Andrew (Angus E) |
| Galbraith, Sam | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | |
| Haynes, Frank | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Howells, Geraint | Mr. Peter L. Pike and |
| Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn) | Mr. Alan Meale. |
| Kennedy, Charles |
§ Question accordingly agreed to
1.15 am§ Amendment proposed: No. 33, in page 1, leave out line 23.—[Mr. Douglas Hogg.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 168, Noes 34.
464| Division No. 336] | [1.16 am |
| AYES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Devlin, Tim |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Allason, Rupert | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Amess, David | Dover, Den |
| Amos, Alan | Dunn, Bob |
| Arbuthnot, James | Durant, Tony |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Emery, Sir Peter |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) |
| Ashby, David | Fallon, Michael |
| Atkinson, David | Farr, Sir John |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Favell, Tony |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
| Baldry, Tony | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Batiste, Spencer | Forman, Nigel |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Forth, Eric |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Fox, Sir Marcus |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Franks, Cecil |
| Boswell, Tim | Freeman, Roger |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | French, Douglas |
| Bowis, John | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Brazier, Julian | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Bright, Graham | Gorst, John |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Gregory, Conal |
| Burt, Alistair | Ground, Patrick |
| Carlisle, John, (Luton N) | Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) |
| Carrington, Matthew | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Cash, William | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) | Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Harris, David |
| Cope, John | Hawkins, Christopher |
| Cran, James | Hayward, Robert |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) | Heddle, John |
| Day, Stephen | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) | Page, Richard |
| Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) | Paice, James |
| Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) | Patten, John (Oxford W) |
| Hunt, David (Wirral W) | Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Irvine, Michael | Portillo, Michael |
| Jack, Michael | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Jessel, Toby | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Renton, Tim |
| Jones, Robert B (Herts W) | Riddick, Graham |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) | Rowe, Andrew |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Ryder, Richard |
| Knapman, Roger | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Knowles, Michael | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Knox, David | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Lang, Ian | Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Lee, John (Pendle) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Speed, Keith |
| Lightbown, David | Stern, Michael |
| Lilley, Peter | Stevens, Lewis |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) |
| Lord, Michael | Summerson, Hugo |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Maclean, David | Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Malins, Humfrey | Townsend, Cyril D. (B' heath) |
| Mans, Keith | Tracey, Richard |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Trotter, Neville |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Maude, Hon Francis | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Walden, George |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick | Warren, Kenneth |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Watts, John |
| Miller, Hal | Wells, Bowen |
| Mills, Iain | Wheeler, John |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Wilkinson, John |
| Morris, M (N'hampton S) | Wilshire, David |
| Moss, Malcolm | Wood, Timothy |
| Moynihan, Hon Colin | |
| Nelson, Anthony | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Neubert, Michael | Mr, Mark Lennox-Boyd and Mr. Kenneth Carlisle. |
| Nicholls, Patrick |
| NOES | |
| Alton, David | Livsey, Richard |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | McCusker, Harold |
| Battle, John | McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) |
| Beggs, Roy | Michael, Alun |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
| Buckley, George J. | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Ross, William (Londonderry E) |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Salmond, Alex |
| Cryer, Bob | Skinner, Dennis |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) |
| Dixon, Don | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) | Wallace, James |
| Galbraith, Sam | Welsh, Andrew (Angus E) |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Haynes, Frank | |
| Howells, Geraint | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn) | Mr. Peter Pike and Mr. Alan Meale. |
| Kennedy, Charles |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
1.30 am
§
Amendment proposed: No. 34 in page 1, line 24, leave out 'revolving magazine smooth-bore gun' and insert
`smooth-bore revolver gun other than one which is chambered
for 9mm rim-fired cartridges or loaded at the muzzle end of each chamber;'.—[Mr. Douglas Hogg.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
465§ The House proceeded to a Division—
§ Sir Peter Emery (Honiton)( seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I refer you to Standing Order No. 39, which deals with unnecessarily claimed Divisions? It says:
Mr. Speaker may … take the vote of the House, or committee, by calling upon the Members who support, and who challenge his decision, successively to rise in their places; and he shall thereupon, as he thinks fit, either declare the determination of the House".As there have been majorities of more than 130 in the previous Divisions, I believe that it may well be considered that the Divisions are unnecessary.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerPerhaps I can put that to the test when I come to collect the voices in a minute or so.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER stated that he thought that the Ayes had it; and, on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who supported and challenged his decision successively to rise in their places, and he declared that the Ayes had it.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed: No. 35, in page 1, leave out lines 25 and 26 and insert—
`(ae) any rocket launcher, or any mortar, for projecting a stabilised missile, other than a launcher or mortar designed for line-throwing or pyrotechnic purposes or as signalling apparatus;".'.—[Mr. Douglas Hogg.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made—
§ The House proceeded to a Division—
§ Mr. Bermingham(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As I understand the precedent in this matter, the last occasion on which Standing Order No. 35 was acted upon—[HON. MEMBERS: "No. 39."]—I accept that correction-was after five Divisions. Tonight—[Interruption.] I do not know what the hilarity on the Conservative Benches is all about, but it shows the arrogance—[Interruption.]
If on a matter that clearly divides the Government Benches, even after a guillotine against their own Members and when there are still 46 amendments on the Order Paper for discussion after the guillotined time has run out, it is permitted after only three or four Divisions on the amendments that Standing Order No. 39 should be invoked, that must be a negation of the democratic rights of the House. I therefore challenge your ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It seems to me that there was a time when your honourable predecessor, Mr. Deputy Speaker, ruled——
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I understand what the hon. Gentleman is saying. I do not know of any benchmark that should guide me in these matters. I only know that the House determined that there should be a Standing Order No. 39, and presumably it intended that it should be used, I cannot understand under what circumstances the House would decide that it should be used, were it not under the present circumstances, when the will of the House is clear and Divisions are being called.
§ Mr. Skinner(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I want to draw your attention to the fact that—[HON. MEMBERS: "Put on the hat."][Interruption.] During the 1970–74 Government, on the occasion when the Standing Order was invoked by the 466 then Speaker, there were only seven Members in one Lobby. It was only after several votes had taken place that the Speaker decided that he would invoke the Standing Order.
Another important factor to which I wish to draw your attention, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is that those seven Members were seven members of the Labour party. On this occasion there are people going through the Division Lobby who represent several different parties, including members of the Tory party. I should have thought that you would have waited some time longer before invoking Standing Order No. 39. The numbers have not been static on the Opposition Benches and there have been variations during the course of several Divisions.
You will have noticed, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that there has also been a reduction in the vote on the Conservative Benches. Therefore, who is to know whether, in the course of the next 10 Divisions, the Tory Members would not have got tired of staying here? Their numbers would have decreased much faster, and therefore the difference between the two parties would have been much greater. I believe that what has happened tonight is that you have given the Government the opportunity to fly in the face of parliamentary democracy and——
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I regret that the hon. Gentleman has tended to spoil his argument, to which I was listening carefully——
§ Mr. Skinnerrose——
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder.
—by his latter remarks. If the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for St. Helens, South (Mr. Bermingham) had intended to suggest that the Chair might have been wiser to allow the House to divide on one or two more amendments before invoking the provisions of Standing Order No. 39, the Chair might take account of that. The implication is that the hon. Gentlemen are prepared to understand that the Chair might, at its discretion, invoke the provisions of the Standing Order at the appropriate time.
I believe that that was the sense of the points of order, and I believe also that the Chair might be wise to take that into account. Therefore, if we now proceed to the next amendment——
§ Mr. Frank Cook(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will recall that the normal procedure for voting on Divisions in this House allows a time delay of eight minutes from when the Division is called, before you, Sir, instruct that the doors be locked. When the Standing Order was invoked, that time limit had not been allowed, so it is possible that some hon. Members may even yet be on their way to take part in that Division. Therefore, I appeal to you——
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. On the last occasion when the House divided, I called for the doors to be locked on the advice of the Clerk at the Table who takes account of the automatic time recording device which switches on automatically at the appropriate time. If the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that somehow the time limit was incorrect, certainly I shall have that equipment examined. I can only tell the hon. Gentleman and the House that I take account of the flashing red light that comes on at the appropiate moment.
§ Mr. BerminghamOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I have listened to the hon. Gentleman. I am sure that the House is getting rather anxious to get to bed, as I am.
§ Mr. James Molyneaux (Lagan Valley)Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) pointed out, quite rightly, that hon. Members representing various parts of the United Kingdom took part in the Divisions. Through no fault of yours, Mr. Deputy Speaker, or of Mr. Speaker, some of us are being deprived of adequate opportunity to discuss some of the very important matters that are now being steamrollered through. That is through no fault of yours, Mr. Deputy Speaker; it is simply because the Government did not give adequate notice that Northern Ireland would be included in the Bill. We had no opportunity to consult our constituents. The maximum period of consultation was three days. The normal courtesy of notifying the party leaders in Northern Ireland was not observed on this occasion.
If you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, would be willing to take up the point with which you seemed to find some sympathy, I would be content if you were to reconsider that narrow point without any other implications and allow us to take some more Divisions. Then, although we have been deprived of speaking on these new amendments and new clauses, at least hon. Members representing the component parts of the United Kingdom will be able to vote.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerThe House would expect me to have regard to the points of order and the substance of the points of order that have been expressed, particularly the point made by the leader of the Official Unionist party.
§ The House having divided: Ayes 167, Noes 33.
468| Division No. 337] | [1.40 am |
| AYES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Cash, William |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) |
| Allason, Rupert | Coombs, Simon (Swindon) |
| Amess, David | Cope, John |
| Amos, Alan | Cran, James |
| Arbuthnot, James | Currie, Mrs Edwina |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Day, Stephen |
| Ashby, David | Devlin, Tim |
| Atkinson, David | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Dover, Den |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Dunn, Bob |
| Baldry, Tony | Durant, Tony |
| Batiste, Spencer | Emery, Sir Peter |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Fallon, Michael |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Farr, Sir John |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Favell, Tony |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
| Boswell, Tim | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Forman, Nigel |
| Bowis, John | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Brazier, Julian | Forth, Eric |
| Bright, Graham | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Fox, Sir Marcus |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Franks, Cecil |
| Burt, Alistair | Freeman, Roger |
| Carlisle, John, (Luton N) | French, Douglas |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Carrington, Matthew | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Morris, M (N'hampton S) |
| Gregory, Conal | Moss, Malcolm |
| Ground, Patrick | Moynihan, Hon Colin |
| Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) | Nelson, Anthony |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Neubert, Michael |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Harris, David | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Hawkins, Christopher | Page, Richard |
| Hayward, Robert | Paice, James |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Patten, John (Oxford W) |
| Heddle, John | Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoftrey |
| Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) | Portillo, Michael |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) | Renton, Tim |
| Hunt, David (Wirral W) | Riddick, Graham |
| Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Irvine, Michael | Rowe, Andrew |
| Jack, Michael | Ryder, Richard |
| Janman, Tim | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Jessel, Toby | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Jones, Robert B (Herts W) | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Knapman, Roger | Speed, Keith |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) | Stern, Michael |
| Knowles, Michael | Stevens, Lewis |
| Knox, David | Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) |
| Lang, Ian | Summerson, Hugo |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Lee, John (Pendle) | Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) |
| Lightbown, David | Tracey, Richard |
| Lilley, Peter | Trotter, Neville |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Lord, Michael | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Walden, George |
| Maclean, David | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Malins, Humfrey | Warren, Kenneth |
| Mans, Keith | Watts, John |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Wells, Bowen |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Wheeler, John |
| Maude, Hon Francis | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Wilkinson, John |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Wilshire, David |
| Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick | Wood, Timothy |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | |
| Miller, Hal | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Mills, Iain | Mr. Alan Howarth and Mr. Stephen Dorrell. |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| NOES | |
| Alton, David | McCusker, Harold |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) |
| Battle, John | Michael, Alun |
| Beggs, Roy | Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Salmond, Alex |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Cryer, Bob | Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Dixon, Don | Wallace, James |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) | Walley, Joan |
| Galbraith, Sam | Welsh, Andrew (Angus E) |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Haynes, Frank | |
| Howells, Geraint | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn) | Mr. Peter Pike and Mr. Alan Meale. |
| Kennedy, Charles | |
| Livsey, Richard |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Amendment proposed: No. 36, in page 1, line 27, leave out subsection (3).—[Mr. Douglas Hogg.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 167, Noes 32.
470| Division No. 338] | [1.54 am |
| AYES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Heddle, John |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Allason, Rupert | Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) |
| Amess, David | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Amos, Alan | Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) |
| Arbuthnot, James | Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Hunt, David (Wirral W) |
| Ashby, David | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Atkinson, David | Irvine, Michael |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Jack, Michael |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Janman, Tim |
| Baldry, Tony | Jessel, Toby |
| Batiste, Spencer | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Jones, Robert B (Herts W) |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Knapman, Roger |
| Boswell, Tim | Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Knowles, Michael |
| Bowis, John | Knox, David |
| Brazier, Julian | Lang, Ian |
| Bright, Graham | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Lee, John (Pendle) |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) |
| Burt, Alistair | Lightbown, David |
| Carlisle, John, (Luton N) | Lilley, Peter |
| Carrington, Matthew | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| Cash, William | Lord, Michael |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Maclean, David |
| Cope, John | Malins, Humfrey |
| Cran, James | Mans, Keith |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
| Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
| Day, Stephen | Maude, Hon Francis |
| Devlin, Tim | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick |
| Dover, Den | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Dunn, Bob | Miller, Hal |
| Durant, Tony | Mills, Iain |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Fallon, Michael | Morris, M (N'hampton S) |
| Farr, Sir John | Moss, Malcolm |
| Favell, Tony | Moynihan, Hon Colin |
| Fenner, Dame Peggy | Nelson, Anthony |
| Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Neubert, Michael |
| Forman, Nigel | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Forth, Eric | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Norman | Page, Richard |
| Fox, Sir Marcus | Paice, James |
| Franks, Cecil | Patten, John (Oxford W) |
| Freeman, Roger | Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| French, Douglas | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Portillo, Michael |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Gregory, Conal | Renton, Tim |
| Ground, Patrick | Riddick, Graham |
| Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Rowe, Andrew |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Ryder, Richard |
| Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Harris, David | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Hawkins, Christopher | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Hayward, Robert | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Walden, George |
| Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Speed, Keith | Warren, Kenneth |
| Stern, Michael | Watts, John |
| Stevens, Lewis | Wells, Bowen |
| Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) | Wheeler, John |
| Summerson, Hugo | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman | Wilkinson, John |
| Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) | Wilshire, David |
| Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) | Wood, Timothy |
| Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) | |
| Tracey, Richard | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Trotter, Neville | Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd and Mr. Kenneth Carlisle. |
| Twinn, Dr Ian | |
| Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| NOES | |
| Alton, David | McCusker, Harold |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) |
| Battle, John | Michael, Alun |
| Beggs, Roy | Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Ross, William (Londonderry E) |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Salmond, Alex |
| Cryer, Bob | Skinner, Dennis |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) |
| Dixon, Don | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) | Wallace, James |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Welsh, Andrew (Angus E) |
| Haynes, Frank | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Howells, Geraint | |
| Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Kennedy, Charles | Mr. Alan Meale and Mr. Peter Pike. |
| Livsey, Richard |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerWe now come to a Government amendment No. 37. Do I have the leave of the House to put Government amendment No. 38 with it?
§
Amendment proposed: No. 37, in page 2, line 2, leave out 'containing an explosive charge' and insert
'designed to explode on or immediately before impact'.—[Mr. Douglas Hogg.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 166, Noes 31.
471| Division No. 339] | [2.07 am |
| AYES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Carrington, Matthew |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Cash, William |
| Allason, Rupert | Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) |
| Amess, David | Coombs, Simon (Swindon) |
| Amos, Alan | Cope, John |
| Arbuthnot, James | Cran, James |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Currie, Mrs Edwina |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) |
| Ashby, David | Day, Stephen |
| Atkinson, David | Devlin, Tim |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Baldry, Tony | Dover, Den |
| Batiste, Spencer | Dunn, Bob |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Durant, Tony |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Emery, Sir Peter |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Fallon, Michael |
| Boswell, Tim | Farr, Sir John |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Favell, Tony |
| Bowis, John | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
| Brazier, Julian | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Bright, Graham | Forman, Nigel |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Forth, Eric |
| Burt, Alistair | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Carlisle, John, (Luton N) | Fox, Sir Marcus |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Franks, Cecil |
| Freeman, Roger | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
| French, Douglas | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Morris, M (N'hampton S) |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Moss, Malcolm |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Moynihan, Hon Colin |
| Gregory, Conal | Nelson, Anthony |
| Ground, Patrick | Neubert, Michael |
| Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) | Page, Richard |
| Harris, David | Paice, James |
| Hawkins, Christopher | Patten, John (Oxford W) |
| Hayward, Robert | Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael | Portillo, Michael |
| Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) | Renton, Tim |
| Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) | Riddick, Graham |
| Hunt, David (Wirral W) | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas | Rowe, Andrew |
| Irvine, Michael | Ryder, Richard |
| Jack, Michael | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Janman, Tim | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Jessel, Toby | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Jones, Robert B (Herts W) | Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Speed, Keith |
| Knapman, Roger | Stern, Michael |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) | Stevens, Lewis |
| Knowles, Michael | Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) |
| Knox, David | Summerson, Hugo |
| Lang, Ian | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) |
| Lee, John (Pendle) | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) |
| Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Tracey, Richard |
| Lightbown, David | Trotter, Neville |
| Lilley, Peter | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| Lord, Michael | Walden, George |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Maclean, David | Warren, Kenneth |
| Malins, Humfrey | Watts, John |
| Mans, Keith | Wells, Bowen |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Wheeler, John |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Maude, Hon Francis | Wilkinson, John |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Wilshire, David |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Wood, Timothy |
| Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick | |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Miller, Hal | Mr. Robert Boscawen and Mr. Alan Howarth |
| Mills, Iain |
| NOES | |
| Alton, David | McCusker, Harold |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) |
| Battle, John | Michael, Alun |
| Beggs, Roy | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Ross, William (Londonderry E) |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Salmond, Alex |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Cryer, Bob | Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Dixon, Don | Wallace, James |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) | Welsh, Andrew (Angus E) |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Haynes, Frank | |
| Howells, Geraint | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn) | Mr. Alan Meale and Mr. Peter Pike |
| Kennedy, Charles | |
| Livsey, Richard |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed: No. 38, in page 2, line 7, leave out "explosive rocket or shell" and insert
or rocket or shell designed to explode as aforesaid".—[Mr. Douglas Hogg.]
§ Question put, That the amendment to made:
§ The House divided; Ayes 166, Noes 31.
473| Division No. 340] | [2.22 am |
| AYES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Hayward, Robert |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Allason, Rupert | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Amess, David | Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) |
| Amos, Alan | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Arbuthnot, James | Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Howarth, G. (Cannock & Bwd) |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) |
| Ashby, David | Hunt, David (Wirral W) |
| Atkinson, David | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Irvine, Michael |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Jack, Michael |
| Baldry, Tony | Janman, Tim |
| Batiste, Spencer | Jessel, Toby |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Jones, Robert B ("Herts W) |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Boswell, Tim | Knapman, Roger |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) |
| Bowis, John | Knowles, Michael |
| Brazier, Julian | Knox, David |
| Bright, Graham | Lang, Ian |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Lee, John (Pendle) |
| Burt, Alistair | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Carlisle, John, (Luton N) | Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Lightbown, David |
| Carrington, Matthew | Lilley, Peter |
| Cash, William | Lord, Michael |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Maclean, David |
| Cope, John | Malins, Humfrey |
| Cran, James | Mans, Keith |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
| Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
| Day, Stephen | Maude, Hon Francis |
| Devlin, Tim | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Dover, Den | Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick |
| Dunn, Bob | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Durant, Tony | Miller, Hal |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Mills, Iain |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
| Fallon, Michael | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Farr, Sir John | Morris, M (N'hampton S) |
| Favell, Tony | Moss, Malcolm |
| Fenner, Dame Peggy | Moynihan, Hon Colin |
| Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Nelson, Anthony |
| Forman, Nigel | Neubert, Michael |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Forth, Eric | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Norman | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Fox, Sir Marcus | Page, Richard |
| Franks, Cecil | Paice, James |
| Freeman, Roger | Patten, John (Oxford W) |
| French, Douglas | Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Portillo, Michael |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Gregory, Conal | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Ground, Patrick | Renton, Tim |
| Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) | Riddick, Graham |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Rowe, Andrew |
| Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) | Ryder, Richard |
| Harris, David | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Hawkins, Christopher | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Shelton, William (Streatham) | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) | Walden, George |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Speed, Keith | Watts, John |
| Stern, Michael | Wells, Bowen |
| Stevens, Lewis | Wheeler, John |
| Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Summerson, Hugo | Wilkinson, John |
| Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman | Wilshire, David |
| Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) | Wood, Timothy |
| Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) | |
| Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Tracey, Richard | Mr. Peter Lloyd and Mr. Stephen Dorrell |
| Trotter, Neville |
| NOES | |
| Alton, David | McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | Michael, Alun |
| Battle, John | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
| Beggs, Roy | Pike, Peter L. |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Ross, William (Londonderry E) |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Salmond, Alex |
| Cryer, Bob | Skinner, Dennis |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) |
| Dixon, Don | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) | Wallace, James |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Welsh, Andrew (Angus E) |
| Haynes, Frank | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Howells, Geraint | |
| Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Kennedy, Charles | Mr. Gerald Bermingham and Mr. Alan Meale. |
| Livsey, Richard | |
| McCusker, Harold |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Amendment proposed: No. 39, in page 2, line 10, after 'which', insert '(a)'.—[Mr. Douglas Hogg.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House proceeded to a Division, and MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER stated that he thought that the Ayes had it; and, on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who supported and challenged his that the Ayes had it.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. CryerOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As we are apparently not having a Division, it is handy not to have the headgear on. The first Division on this measure gave the Government a majority of 136. The votes for the Ayes on the guillotine motion were 278, and for the Noes 142. In the last Division before the one that took place under Standing Order No. 39, the Ayes were 166 and the Noes were 31, giving a majority of 135. That was one less than the Government's majority on the guillotine motion.
Adopting the principle that a majority of 135 or 136 implies that we can abandon Divisions, we could have abandoned the Division even for the guillotine motion. Each side has lost 100, but the majority has been maintained. It is a dangerous precedent to allow Standing Order No. 39 to be used when the majority is very much of the order that the Government obtain in their day-to-day business.
By using Standing Order No. 39, Members who wish to register their objections in the Division Lobbies are denied that wish because no record of names is taken. That is a very important principle and the reason why we do not have a secret ballot and why a record is taken at the desk for publication the following day. It is a very important 474 and a treasured principle that hon. Members are accountable by the record of their votes. The use of Standing Order No. 39 is a denial of that right in circumstances in which the Government are obtaining exactly the same or a smaller majority than that which they obtained when the full panoply of the Standing Orders was applied for the guillotine motion. I therefore hope that you will not use Standing Order No. 39 again in the remaining Divisions.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI believe that the House would like me to deal with this point. The argument that the hon. Gentleman has advanced is not an argument against the use of Standing Order No. 39. Rather it was an argument against Standing Order No. 39. If the House agreed that Standing Order No. 39 was an appropriate addition to our Standing Orders, these are presumably the circumstances in which the House envisaged that the Standing Order should be used.
The size of the majority in the Divisions has been very consistent. It is clear that in exercising my judgment—as I am required to do—I was fully justified in taking account of the very large majority to which the hon. Gentleman has drawn attention. Perhaps we should move on now.
§ Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South)(seated and covered): Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Following the line of reasoning of the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) may I have some guidance from the Chair? As I understand it, no record is taken of hon. Members who vote. In another tradition, those of us who wish to record our dissent or have our votes registered have a right to do that so that people can know that we have represented their interests.
I appreciate that some right hon. and hon. Members may not wish to have their votes registered in these circumstances. However, those of us representing constituencies in Northern Ireland would be very happy to have our votes registered to give account of our stewardship.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. One point at a time. I draw the attention of the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) to the fact that "Erskine May" makes it clear on page 402 that it is our practice in these circumstances to record the numbers of those who wish to vote contrary to the motion before the House, but not to record the names.
§ Mr. Skinner(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. One of the problems that you face is that when Standing Order No. 39 is used you must be satisfied that it is being used only very sparingly; otherwise anyone in the Chair could be charged with taking decisions and not giving people an opportunity to cast their votes in the proper fashion.
I realised many years ago when we had a series of Divisions between 1970 and 1974 when we got down to seven hon. Members that the charge hardly became sustainable in terms of points of order. However, we raised them and we lost. There were seven of us from one party. Throughout tonight there have been hon. Members from the different sections in Northern Ireland, there have been Liberals, Social Democrats, people from the Labour party and on odd occasions there have been Tories. We have also had members of the Scottish National party and the Welsh 475 national party. In other words, we probably have had more parties supporting the Opposition than there were people engaged in the Divisions way back between 1970 and 1974.
It would be unfortunate if the practice of using Standing Order No. 39 was continued in future. For instance, when we debated the Firearms (Amendment) Bill before it was halted the other night, the number of people who voted against it——
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I do not believe that we can carry on a debate about the exercise of my discretion. This is a matter for my discretion. I have exercised it, and I do not believe that it is a matter for debate in the House. I have ruled, and the House must accept my ruling
§ Mr. Frank CookFurther to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am not seeking to challenge your ruling, but I ask you to ponder, if only briefly, the fact that you gave your ruling on the grounds that the majority had been remarkably consistent. The majority in this Chamber has been remarkably consistent for the past 12 months. If you base the application of Standing Order No. 39 on that premise, you could apply it on every day that the House sits. I believe that that would be a denial of democracy and quite unacceptable to the electorate.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would realise that the rarity of the invocation of Standing Order No. 39 refutes the point that he is seeking to put to the House.
We use Standing Order No. 39 when, in the judgment and at the discretion of the Chair, it seems appropriate to do so. I have deemed it appropriate to do so in these circumstances. I did so having regard to points of order that were put to me earlier in our proceedings. I took them into account, weighed them heavily, and am satisfied that I have exercised my judgment and discretion properly in the circumstances. I believe that we should now get on.
§ Mr. BerminghamOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I do not seek to challenge your ruling, but I seek your guidance [HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."] When they have quietened down, hon. Members may realise that I am seeking to make an important point.
As I understand the procedure that will now follow—[Interruption]—if the chuntering dies down, hon. Members may hear something to their advantage—you will ask each side to rise either for or against each amendment. Were it to reach a time when the number rising for the motion decreased significantly, whereas the number of hon. Members rising against the motion were to remain constant, would it still be your ruling that Standing Order No. 39 apply?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerIf the hon. Gentleman had listened carefully to the statement that I made when collecting the voices when the Question was last put he would have heard it prefaced with the words "The Chair's opinion". It is a matter for the opinion of the Chair. In the hypothetical circumstances that the hon. Gentleman has described to the House, if the Chair was of a contrary opinion, it would rule accordingly.
§ Amendment proposed: No. 40, in page 2, line 11, leave out `which'.—[Mr. Douglas Hogg.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
476§ The House proceeded to a Division——
§ Mr. William Ross(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Although I would not wish to challenge your ruling, may I draw your attention to the statement in "Erskine May" about Standing Order No. 39—originally No. 38—which was introduced to avoid frivolous Divisions. Tonight's Divisions cannot be described as frivolous, because the matters under discussion are of considerable importance. In the light of that, I wonder whether you might care to reconsider whether further Divisions should take place in the normal fashion?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOn the last occasion that the Question was put I ruled from the Chair that in my opinion the Division was unnecessarily claimed. As it is manifest that the view of the, House is overwhelmingly on one side, there seems no point in taking up the time of the House and of hon. Members when the outcome is so obviously predictable. That is the sense in which Standing Order No. 39 was conceived.
§ Mr. SkinnerFurther to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman must be seated and covered.
§ Mr. Skinner(seated and covered): I think, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you failed to take into account the fact that in the Division Lobby we had nearly half the Ulster Unionist party, about one third of the SLD, two thirds of the Welsh nationalists and all the Scottish National party. Those parties are all recognised in the House. We should get to the point that those people are being deprived of the opportunity to be properly represented in the Lobbies in the form that they have taken tonight and that is a negation of parliamentary democracy. On the basis of the representation of those minority parties, I would ask you, Mr. Deputy Speaker seriously——
§ MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER stated that he thought that the Ayes had it; and, on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who supported and challenged his decision successively to rise in their places, and he declared that the Ayes had it.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment proposed: No. 41, in page 2, line 12, after `dangerous', insert; and
(b) in the case of a firearm, was not lawfully on sale in Great Britain in substantial numbers at any time before 1988,'.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House proceeded to a Division, and MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER stated that he thought that the Ayes had it; and, on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the Division was unnecessarily claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who supported and challenged his decision successively to rise in their places, and he declared that the Ayes had it.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI shall now respond to the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner). In normal circumstances, after a Division, the Tellers come to the Table and announce the result. The result is not split into 477 parties, but is given as the numbers taking part in the Division. That is what the Chair must have regard to when putting the Question.
§ Mr. Ray Powell (Ogmore)Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. What were the numbers taken for the last Division?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerThey were 166 to 31.
§ Mr. Frank CookFurther to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I should like to know how it is possible to determine that those in favour were 166? I wish to challenge the vote.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon and that of the House. That was the last time that we had a Division when Tellers announced the result to the Chair. The Clerk has the number of Noes for the last occasion. However, that is irrelevant, because this is a matter for the Chair. The number voting Aye was significantly greater than those who voted No. I hope that no one in the House will express a view contrary to that.
§ Mr. Frank CookYou, Mr. Deputy Speaker, informed the House that "Erskine May" contained the necessity of a record to be kept of those who had voted against. We are simply asking that that information be imparted to the House on each occasion. Is there no obligation on the Chair or on the Table—[Interruption.] If "Erskine May" contains an obligation that the operation be carried out, surely there must be an obligation that the result of that operation be reported to the House.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI have explained to the hon. Gentleman and to the House that these are matters for the discretion and judgment of the Chair. I have exercised my discretion and my judgment.
§ Mr. Peter Pike (Burnley)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it not a fact that the Government have put you in the difficult position of having to exercise your discretion this evening? We are debating a Government Bill and the Government amendments to that Bill could not be debated because of the Government's guillotine.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman is seeking to reopen a debate which has already taken place, which has reached its conclusion, and on which the House has voted. The House voted on this matter yesterday—or today, by our conventions—and came to a decision. Under the terms of the motion which the House passed, I am required to put the Question on these matters without further debate.
§ Mr. PikeI accept your ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I seek your guidance. Would not the Government assist you if they were to withdraw the remaining amendments?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman says that he is seeking my guidance. My guidance to him is not to pursue that matter any further, because it is irrelevant.
§ Mr. CryerOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Am I correct in thinking that, when I earlier raised the question of names not being recorded under the Standing Order No. 39 procedure, you stated that numbers would 478 be recorded? My recollection is that you made that response to satisfy my point that it was a dereliction of our democracy not to have those names recorded. On the last Division, no numbers were recorded for either side. I specifically recall that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, said that the number of objectors would be recorded, but that did not happen.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI hope that I did not mislead the House. Names are not taken but the numbers are recorded by the Clerks and are recorded in the Journal of the House. We ought to get on.
§ Mr. Harold McCusker (Upper Bann)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. On the basis of the remarks you have just made, am I not entitled to know by how many I lost the last vote? On the last occasion, 126 Members rose from their seats; if the Clerk did not count them, I can advise him of that fact. I imagine that between now and 4 o'clock a larger or smaller number of Members than that may rise from their seats. May the House be given an assurance that the Clerks will count those Members each time they rise?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerUnder our Standing Orders, the hon. Gentleman is not entitled to know.
§ Mr. McCuskerFurther to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You said that the number would be recorded in the Journal.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerAs I said earlier, the minority vote—the number of those Members voting against the motion—will be recorded in the Journal. However, under Standing Orders the hon. Gentleman is not entitled to know now the numbers who voted either for or against on the last occasion that the Question was put.
§ Mr. MolyneauxOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it not a fact that at some point the number of Members voting for or against will be recorded in the Journal? If so, with respect, is sufficient time being given to the Table to count the numbers voting on each side of the House?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOnly those Members voting against a motion—the minority—will be counted and recorded in the Journal.
§ Mr. BerminghamFurther to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I wish to raise two points of order. The first is that the number against the motion in the last vote was not counted and recorded. I raise a second point, Mr. Deputy Speaker——
§ 3 am
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I think that that is incorrect. The Clerk counted the number who voted against the last time that the Question was put to the House.
§
Amendment proposed: No. 41, in page 2, line 12, after `dangerous', insert
`; and
(b) in the case of a firearm, was not lawfully on sale in Great Britain in substantial numbers at any time before 1988:.—[Mr. Douglas Hogg.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House proceeded to a Division, and MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER stated that he thought that the Ayes had it; and, on his decision being challenged, it appeared to him that the 479 Division was unnecessarily claimed, and he accordingly called upon the Members who supported and challenged his decision successively to rise in their places, and he declared that the Ayes had it.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. Frank CookOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Am I right in understanding that it is out of order for Members to take part in debates if they are outside the Bar or in the Under Gallery? If that is so, how is it possible for hon. Members in those areas to take part in the Division?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI am not aware that they voted. The fact that someone stands, sits down or does something else beyond the Bar of the House is not a matter for me and is not taken into account in our proceedings unless it interferes with or disrupts those proceedings.
§ Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it possible for us to be told as we go along how many Members are voting against the motion? I would like to know whether we are winning.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I want to be helpful, but I think that it might facilitate our proceedings if the hon. Gentleman sought the advice of the Clerks as to the numbers who have voted at the end of each Division.
§ Mr. William RossOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will recall the previous point raised about the hon. Members standing outside the Bar of the House. You will have noted that when you last called a Division——
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising the matter, because it gives me the opportunity to suggest that hon. Members beyond the Bar of the House who are not taking part in our proceedings should not presume to do so. They are only creating confusion, and I would urge them either to leave the House or to take no part.