§ Mr. Norman HoggImportant matters are raised in amendment No. 30, but in view of the position that we have reached in tonight's business I do not intend to move the amendment. I hope to have it debated in the other place.
§ Mr. Michael ForsythI beg to move amendment No. 58, in page 17, line 6, leave out '3' and insert '4'.
§ Mr. SpeakerWith this, it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 59, 60 and 61.
§ Mr. ForsythThe effect of the amendments is to adjust the numbers in consequence of an amendment that the Committee accepted in principle. Therefore, I expect that they will command the support of the whole House.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Amendments made: No. 59, in page 17, line 9, leave out '3' and insert '4'.
§ No. 60, in page 17, line 27, leave out '2' and insert '3'.
1067§ No. 61, in page 17, line 30, leave out '3' and insert '4'. —[Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
§ Order for Third Reading read.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.—[Mr. Michael Forsyth.]
§ 10.6 pm
§ Mr. Dennis Canavan (Falkirk, West)I do not think that the Bill should be given a formal Third Reading. It is a devious, sneaky piece of legislation. It purports to be a Bill to decentralise educational power. It takes power away from education authorities and gives more power to teachers and parents. The Government have not thought through the consequences of the Bill. If they have thought them through, their intentions in introducing the Bill are evil and will have a detrimental effect on children's educational opportunities.
I believe firmly in the decentralisation of power, including educational power, but the way in which the Bill pretends to do it is very unsatisfactory. It fails to strike a balance between the powers that may be decentralised to one particular school and the powers that should be vested in the wider area of which that school forms a part.
I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley, South (Mr. Buchan) has dwelt at considerable length and in some detail on the effect of Government intervention, right up to Downing street level, on the educational opportunities for children in his area. What takes place in Paisley today may take place in many other areas of Scotland next week, next month or next year.
Ever since comprehensive education became a reality in Scotland we have recognised that it is not good enough to look at just one school and its needs in isolation from the rest of the community. That would lead to a growing disparity in children's educational opportunities between one school and another in the same community.
For this Minister to expect the House to give a formal Third Reading to the Bill is a piece of cheek and brass neck. For a Minister with responsibility for education in Scotland who has no mandate whatsoever from the people of Scotland to start preaching to us about the need for decentralisation and accountability is an affront to all the traditions of democratic education in Scotland. He only scraped home by the skin of his teeth in his own constituency and then found himself catapulted into the Scottish Office as Minister for Health, Minister for Education, Minister for Sport, Minister for Art and Minister for this, that and the next thing. In a very devious way, he even went cap in hand to Downing street, behind the back of his own Secretary of State, to persuade the Prime Minister to intervene in Scottish education, about which she knows next to nothing.
There are dangerous tendencies in the Bill. It is a paving Bill for what is politely called down here "opting out", and which could eventually lead not just to schools opting out of local education authority control but to the privatisation of certain schools and a return to selection, fee paying and to everything that is anathema to traditions of democratic education within Scotland.
The late Willie Ross would turn in his grave if he could see his successor as Minister with responsibility for Scottish education. Willie Ross came in for a great deal of criticism during his tenure of office as Secretary of State for Scotland, including some from myself. However, no one can take back from him what he did in the late 1960s— 1068 almost a quarter of a century ago—when he brought forward an education revolution, trying to ex tend educational opportunity for generations of children. There are many hon. Members in all quarters of the House now representing Scottish constituencies, and a few Conservative Members representing perhaps even constituencies south of the border, who gained a great deal from the Scottish education revolution of the late 1960s.
In this devious legislation, we are witnessing a first attempt by the Government to bring about a counterrevolution that will be detrimental to children's educational opportunities in Scotland rather than be an extension of them. That is why we should vote against the Bill.
§ Mr. Michael J. MartinSome excellent schools in my constituency have been closed and it is a pity that parents have been compelled to resort to the courts. I hope that the Minister will examine means of allowing parents to make representations to the relevant Ministers when closures are to take place. As the Minister well knows, it is a difficult and expensive process for parents to go to court, and I hope that he will bear that point in mind.
§ Mr. Andrew WelshOnce again the Government have accepted few amendments, and none of major importance. The Bill is fundamentally flawed in that it ignores Scottish traditions and attitudes and clearly intends to introduce alien ideas and practices. The Government would have been better employed building upon the foundations of existing parent-teacher organisations, using existing practices and expertise, and giving greater powers to individuals and organisations within the existing and established Scottish system. Instead, we are presented with an ideologically based Bill, producing an educational Trojan horse which will eventually destroy the harmony and unity of our national education system. Time will tell, but we shall oppose the Bill on Third Reading. We would have preferred legislation designed to defend and advance our nation's education in ways more suited to the Scottish system and Scottish attitudes.
§ Mr. BuchanThe Minister's conduct tonight has amply illustrated the Bill's real purpose. Events over the past eight days have underlined its purpose. It is not to extend democracy towards parents in Scottish schools, but to pave the way for the next Bill which will allow opting out.
It is noticeable that the Minister did not reply to my challenge that he had been having meetings with parents in the town of Paisley, which he has so disrupted, in order to develop the concept of them opting out so that Ministers would have a model for the rest of Scotland. We have seen Ministers taking action directly to save one school at the command of the Prime Minister—Paisley grammar—and we have seen them succeeding. A legal action prevented the closure of another school which people wanted to be kept open. We want an answer to some of those questions.
Above all, the Minister can use the two or three minutes remaining to him tonight to tell us whether he will now meet Strathclyde region to try to settle the education crisis in Paisley before we hit the summer holidays. None of the children in the schools in Paisley know where they are 1069 going in a month's time, and nor do their parents. Will the Minister answer that? Will he meet the region and try to understand the mess into which he and the Prime Minister have put my town?
§ Mr. Malcolm BruceAs is so often the case with the Government, the Bill represents a basically popular idea that has been corrupted because the Government have failed to take into account the views of the overwhelming majority of people who made representations to them.
No hon. Member would deny the case for giving parents more involvement in the running of a school. The Government are trying to pretend that that is what the Bill is about, despite the fact that they are insisting on a parental majority rather than a partnership. They have rejected the concept of a partnership that parents and teachers have actively sought. That is the fundamental flaw in the Bill. No Conservative Member, even those who have sought to modify the Bill, can escape the fact that it does not represent what Scotttish education is looking for. Indeed, it is a diversion from other more important and higher priorities.
The Conservative party, in its election manifesto, pledged to reform and give extra powers to school councils. There would have been widespread cross-party support if it had done that, but the Bill goes much further and does not seek to create the spirit of partnership which has a long-established tradition within Scottish education.
The final point that is particularly offensive to Opposition Members is that we cannot accept that a Government with only 10 Scottish Members have the right to take the devolved power that we have in the Scottish Office, corrupt it and disrupt our entire education system with ideologies that the Scottish people have convincingly and comprehensively rejected. That is why, although the Bill contains some proposals that could usefully have been implemented to reform schools councils, it represents something that Scottish education did not want, did not ask for and will reject. We shall vote against it.
§ Mr. Norman HoggThe Bill had its genesis on an August morning last year when the Minister made a far-reaching announcement on what he proposed to do with regard to the management of our schools in Scotland. His proposals were rejected because the Scottish people have a deep affection for their system of education and they were not prepared to have it radically altered by a Government that had little authority to govern in Scotland.
The Bill which we are discussing tonight is much changed from that which we debated in Committee. I am pleased that that is the case, but I regret to say that there remains much in the Bill that we find unacceptable. We find it unacceptable that parents are to have a controlling rather than an advisory role on the school board and that there is to be no partnership with the teachers in the sense of their having equal powers.
The Bill gives too much power to the school board over the school budget, over the head teachers' spending plans, and, therefore, over matters of curriculum. It downgrades 1070 the prefessional expertise of teachers and is a diversion from the real problems of education over which the Minister presides.
The Bill is a paving measure for opting out, and if the Minister thought that he had a bad time last August when he announced his proposals for school boards, it is nothing like the response that he will get when he brings forward a Bill for opting out later this year.
My right hon. and hon. Friends will, therefore, without doubt and without hesitation, vote against this Bill tonight.
§ Mr. Michael ForsythThe Bill brings to parents in Scotland the same opportunities and rights as parents enjoy elsewhere in the United Kingdom and in almost every other country in Europe. It is a sad reflection on the Opposition that they have opposed it not in principle but by the back door and on every occasion. Once again it is the Conservative party that is extending people's rights in Scotland, and this will be recognised on the doorsteps in the years ahead.
§ Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 269, Noes 213.
1074| Divislon No. 372] | [10.19 pm |
| AYES | |
| Adley, Robert | Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Carrington, Matthew |
| Alexander, Richard | Carttiss, Michael |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Cartwright, John |
| Amess, David | Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda |
| Amos, Alan | Chapman, Sydney |
| Arbuthnot, James | Chope, Christopher |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) |
| Ashby, David | Colvin, Michael |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Conway, Derek |
| Atkins, Robert | Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) |
| Atkinson, David | Coombs, Simon (Swindon) |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (MoleValley) | Couchman, James |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Cran, James |
| Baldry, Tony | Critchley, Julian |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Currie, Mrs Edwina |
| Batiste, Spencer | Curry, David |
| Bellingham, Henry | Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) |
| Bendall, Vivian | Davis, David (Boothferry) |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Day, Stephen |
| Benyon, W. | Devlin, Tim |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Dickens, Geoffrey |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Dicks, Terry |
| Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Dover, Den |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Dunn, Bob |
| Boswell, Tim | Durant, Tony |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Dykes, Hugh |
| Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n) | Eggar, Tim |
| Bowis, John | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes | Evennett, David |
| Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard | Fallon, Michael |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Farr, Sir John |
| Bright, Graham | Favell, Tony |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's) | Finsberg, Sir Geotfrey |
| Browne, John (Winchester) | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) | Forman, Nigel |
| Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Forth, Eric |
| Burns, Simon | Fox, Sir Marcus |
| Butcher, John | Franks, Cecil |
| Butler, Chris | Freeman, Roger |
| Butterfill, John | French, Douglas |
| Fry, Peter | MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire) |
| Gale, Roger | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Gardiner, George | McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) |
| Gill, Christopher | Major, Rt Hon John |
| Goodhart, Sir Philip | Malins, Humfrey |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Mans, Keith |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Maples, John |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Marland, Paul |
| Gow, Ian | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW) | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
| Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) | Mates, Michael |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Gregory, Conal | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Grist, Ian | Miller, Sir Hal |
| Ground, Patrick | Mills, lain |
| Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
| Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) | Mitchell, David (Hants NW) |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Moate, Roger |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Hannam, John | Moore, Rt Hon John |
| Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr') | Morris, M (N'hampton S) |
| Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) | Morrison, Sir Charles |
| Harris, David | Morrison, Rt Hon P (Chester) |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Moynihan, Hon Colin |
| Hawkins, Christopher | Mudd, David |
| Hayes, Jerry | Needham, Richard |
| Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney | Nelson, Anthony |
| Hayward, Robert | Neubert, Michael |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Newton, Rt Hon Tony |
| Heddle, John | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) | Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. | Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley |
| Hill, James | Page, Richard |
| Hind, Kenneth | Paice, James |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Patnick, Irvine |
| Holt, Richard | Patten, Chris (Bath) |
| Hordern, Sir Peter | Pawsey, James |
| Howard, Michael | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) | Porter, Barry (Wirral S) |
| Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) | Portillo, Michael |
| Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Hunt, David (Wirral W) | Price, Sir David |
| Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Hunter, Andrew | Rathbone, Tim |
| Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas | Redwood, John |
| Irvine, Michael | Rhodes James, Robert |
| Jack, Michael | Riddick, Graham |
| Jackson, Robert | Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Janman, Tim | Ridsdale, Sir Julian |
| Jessel, Toby | Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm |
| Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardilf N) | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine | Rost, Peter |
| Key, Robert | Rumbold, Mrs Angela |
| Kilfedder, James | Ryder, Richard |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) | Sackville, Hon Tom |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Sainsbury, Hon Tim |
| Knapman, Roger | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Knight, Greg (Derby North) | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Knowles, Michael | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Lamont, Rt Hon Norman | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Lang, Ian | Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) |
| Latham, Michael | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Shersby, Michael |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Sims, Roger |
| Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Lightbown, David | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Lilley, Peter | Soames, Hon Nicholas |
| Lloyd, Sir lan (Havant) | Speller, Tony |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W) |
| Lord, Michael | Stern, Michael |
| Lyell, Sir Nicholas | Stevens, Lewis |
| Macfarlane, Sir Neil | Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) |
| Taylor, Ian (Esher) | Waller, Gary |
| Taylor, John M (Solihull) | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) | Watts, John |
| Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) | Wheeler, John |
| Tredinnick, David | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Trippier, David | Wood, Timothy |
| Twinn, Dr Ian | |
| Waddington, Rt Hon David | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Wakeham, Rt Hon John | Mr. David Maclean and Mr. Stephen Dorrell. |
| Walden, George | |
| Walker, Bill (T'side North) |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Flynn, Paul |
| Adams, Allen (Paisley N) | Foot, Rt Hon Michael |
| Allen, Graham | Foster, Derek |
| Anderson, Donald | Foulkes, George |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Fyfe, Maria |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Galbraith, Sam |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Galloway, George |
| Ashton, Joe | Garrett, John (Norwich South) |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | Garrett, Ted (Wallsend) |
| Barron, Kevin | George, Bruce |
| Battle, John | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Beckett, Margaret | Godman, Dr Norman A. |
| Bell, Stuart | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish) | Gordon, Mildred |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Gould, Bryan |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Graham, Thomas |
| Blair, Tony | Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) |
| Blunkett, David | Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) |
| Boateng, Paul | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
| Bradley, Keith | Grocott, Bruce |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Hardy, Peter |
| Brown, Gordon (D'mline E) | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E) | Haynes, Frank |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Henderson, Doug |
| Buchan, Norman | Hinchliffe, David |
| Buckley, George J. | Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) |
| Caborn, Richard | Holland, Stuart |
| Callaghan, Jim | Home Robertson, John |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Hood, Jimmy |
| Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Howarth, George (Knowsley N) |
| Carlile, Alex (Mont'g) | Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Howells, Geraint |
| Clay, Bob | Hoyle, Doug |
| Clelland, David | Hughes, John (Coventry NE) |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Cohen, Harry | Hughes, Roy (Newport E) |
| Coleman, Donald | Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Hughes, Simon (Southwark) |
| Cook, Robin (Livingston) | Illsley, Eric |
| Cousins, Jim | Ingram, Adam |
| Crowther, Stan | John, Brynmor |
| Cryer, Bob | Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) |
| Cummings, John | Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Kennedy, Charles |
| Dalyell, Tam | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Darling, Alistair | Lambie, David |
| Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) | Lamond, James |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l) | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Dewar, Donald | Leighton, Ron |
| Dixon, Don | Lestor, Joan (Eccles) |
| Dobson, Frank | Lewis, Terry |
| Doran, Frank | Litherland, Robert |
| Douglas, Dick | Livsey, Richard |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
| Dunnachie, Jimmy | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth | McAllion, John |
| Eadie, Alexander | McAvoy, Thomas |
| Eastham, Ken | McCartney, Ian |
| Evans, John (St Helens N) | McFall, John |
| Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E) | McKelvey, William |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) | McLeish, Henry |
| Fatchett, Derek | Maclennan, Robert |
| Faulds, Andrew | McTaggart, Bob |
| Fearn, Ronald | Madden, Max |
| Fields, Terry (L'pool B G' n) | Mahon, Mrs Alice |
| Fisher, Mark | Marek, Dr John |
| Flannery, Martin | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Pike, Peter L. |
| Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Martlew, Eric | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Maxton, John | Radice, Giles |
| Meacher, Michael | Randall, Stuart |
| Meale, Alan | Redmond, Martin |
| Michael, Alun | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn |
| Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) | Reid, Dr John |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) | Richardson, Jo |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Roberts, Allan (Bootle) |
| Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) | Robinson, Geoffrey |
| Moonie, Dr Lewis | Rogers, Allan |
| Morgan, Rhodri | Rooker, Jeff |
| Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Rowlands, Ted |
| Mowlam, Marjorie | Ruddock, Joan |
| Mullin, Chris | Salmond, Alex |
| Murphy, Paul | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Nollist, Dave | Sheerman, Barry |
| O'Brien, William | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| O'Neill, Martin | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Short, Clare |
| Parry, Robert | Skinner, Dennis |
| Patchett, Terry | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| Pendry, Tom | Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury) |
| Smith, Rt Hon J. (Monk'ds E) | Welsh, Andrew (Angus E) |
| Spearing, Nigel | Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N) |
| Steel, Rt Hon David | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Steinberg, Gerry | Williams, Rt Hon Alan |
| Stott, Roger | Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then) |
| Strang, Gavin | Wilson, Brian |
| Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) | Winnick, David |
| Taylor, Matthew (Truro) | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck) | Worthington, Tony |
| Turner, Dennis | Wray, Jimmy |
| Vaz, Keith | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Wall, Pat | |
| Wallace, James | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Walley, Joan | Mr. Ray Powell and Mr. Dennis Canavan. |
| Wardell, Gareth (Gower) | |
| Wareing, Robert N. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Bill read the Third times, and passed.