§ 4. Mr. CanavanTo ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what subjects were discussed at his last meeting with representatives of the Government of the Republic of Ireland.
§ Mr. Tom KingMy hon. Friend the Minister of State and I met Irish Ministers yesterday at a meeting of the Intergovernmental Conference. A copy of the joint statement issued after the meeting has been placed in the Library. As indicated in the joint statement, among the subjects discussed were security, Government proposals for disadvantaged areas of Belfast, for promoting fair employment, the International Fund and relations between the security forces and the community.
§ Mr. CanavanIn view of the report that the Stalker-Sampson inquiry was discussed during yesterday's talks and that the British Government gave assurances that disciplinary action would be taken against certain members of the RUC, why is no disciplinary action being taken against Jack Hermon, who is clearly unfit to hold office as Chief Constable? If we believe even half the allegations in Mr. Stalker's book, early retirement is not good enough. The man should be dismissed and charged.
§ Mr. KingOn the first point, the hon. Gentleman is not entirely correct. He may be aware that disciplinary charges have been preferred against a number of members of the RUC. The position of Sir John Hermon, the Chief Constable of the RUC, was considered by the Police Authority for Northern Ireland, whose responsibility it is, and its decision has already been announced.
§ Mr. DykesDoes my right hon. Friend agree that, despite obvious difficulties in a number of areas, the Anglo-Irish Agreement is a developing success and that yesterday's meeting is a further example of that development?
§ Mr. KingI have yet to hear any convincing argument in the House or elsewhere, and nobody can seriously believe, that we are likely to be more successful in tackling the evil of terrorism if we do so in isolation in Northern Ireland rather than in co-operation with the Republic of Ireland. Yesterday's meeting was extremely encouraging in the respect that I described. It showed increasing goodwill between the RUC and the Garda, represented by the Chief Constable and the Commissioner.
I should like to pay tribute, as did the Irish Ministers yesterday, to the leadership of Sir John Hermon, especially in respect of the RUC, its growing reputation and standing and most recently in the matter of its conduct with respect to parades and marches in Northern Ireland, about which all sides have paid their compliments to the RUC.
§ Mr. SpeakerMr. John D. Taylor.
§ Mr. SpeakerVery well, Mr. Hume.
§ Mr. HumeIn relation to security matters that may have been discussed, does the Secretary of State accept that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland recognise that adequate protection for police stations is not only necessary, but seriously necessary? Can he tell me 532 why the protection given in the city of Derry is so different from that anywhere else in Northern Ireland? It disrupts the life of the entire city and is causing serious concern. Will he consider urgently reviewing the protection that is given to police stations with a view to ensuring that adequate protection is provided which does not disrupt the life of the entire city, especially when other Departments agree that the city is starting to move forward?
§ Mr. KingThere is a real difference between the right hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. Taylor) and the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume).
The hon. Gentleman raised a serious issue, about which I am concerned, but I hope that nobody will forget who is responsible for the disruption and inconvenience. It i.s the deliberate determination of the IRA to inflict, by explosion, attacks on the police stations. Evidence has already been given for that and it leads, unfortunately, to measures having to be taken. I can give the hon. Gentleman the assurance, however, that my hon. Friend the Member for Wiltshire, North (Mr. Needham), who is the Minister with responsibility for the environment, was in Derry yesterday, where he was made aware of anxieties about this matter. I have discussed the issue further this morning. We shall be anxious to see how we can tackle this real problem while causing the minimum disruption to commercial and social life in that city.
§ Sir John FarrHas my right hon. Friend had an opportunity to raise with the people from Dublin a matter that is causing a good deal of anxiety in the House—the lack of security on important information that is passed from Belfast to Dublin about the movements of important people when travelling to or from Dublin to go abroad by air?
§ Mr. KingThe matter to which my hon. Friend refers is of concern and it is still under investigation. I await a full report. The matter was mentioned in passing. Irish Ministers share our feeling to the full and the Taoiseach is on record as expressing his horror at the outrage. Ir. is a little early to identify how the problems arose. There is considerable traffic of people backwards and forwards and, in general, security has been extremely good in terms of information. Any lapse such as this is most serious and tragic. Perhaps I might mention in passing that, as the House is meeting, the funeral is taking place at Hillsborough of the Hanna family. I know that I speak for the whole House when I say that we condemn the outrage and express our deep sympathy to the family of the victims of this latest IRA atrocity.
§ Mr. DuffyThe Secretary of State mentioned the International Fund for Ireland. Can he say something about any agreement that was reached at the meeting on its early and effective application to disadvantaged areas?
§ Mr. KingThe International Fund for Ireland is already involved in a range of projects. I have expressed my hope that it will be able to play an increased role and complement some of the initiatives in which I and my hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for the environment, whom I have asked to take responsibility for the "Making Belfast Work" initiative, have been involved. We shall be anxious to see how the fund can complement such initiatives.
§ Mr. StanbrookIs not the good faith of the Government of the Irish Republic in question? Did my right hon. Friend ask the representatives whom he saw yesterday to justify the restrictions that they have recently placed unilaterally on the extradition process from the Republic to the United Kingdom?
§ Mr. KingI have made clear my anxieties, and did so again yesterday, about the problems that have arisen over extradition. My hon. Friend will be aware that in respect of one problem which has arisen recently the Irish Government intend to appeal against the district court's judgment. We attach the greatest importance to effective extradition. Clearly there are problems in that area and they relate to both terrorist and non-terrorist crimes. It is also clear that the Irish Government view with some concern certain aspects of this matter which we shall discuss again.
§ Rev. Martin SmythDoes the Secretary of State accept that it is inadequate for the joint communique merely to condemn continuing terrorist outrages in a week when we have been mourning, among others, the Hannas? We share the sympathy that the Secretary of State expressed on behalf of the House. Does he accept that there is something wrong if the brigade that is supposed to be looking after the border is logistically under strength?
§ Mr. KingI can assure the hon. Gentleman that our approach is a great deal more comprehensive than merely expressing our horror or outrage. We discussed several specific matters yesterday designed to heighten that co-operation, but all start from the basis of whether there can be good will and trust between the respective security forces north and south of the border. In that respect, I was much encouraged by yesterday's meeting. We have additional Army resources over those which used to exist in Northern Ireland, and it is certainly not a question of a lack of resources for the security forces.