HC Deb 20 July 1988 vol 137 cc1088-9
8. Mr. Frank Cook

To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many local authority swimming pools, sports halls and playing fields there are in England.

Mr. Moynihan

There are more than 1,030 local authority swimming pools, including school pools in full public use, and approximately 1,500 local authority sports halls. No figures are held centrally for playing fields.

Mr. Cook

Would the Minister care to comment on the fact that his borough, Lewisham, has described his proposals for the privatisation of these facilities as bad for the public and retrograde for sport"? Does he accept that his proposals are simply another means of trying to provide a source of profit for his friends in the City? Would he care to speculate on the effect that increased coaching fees, hire charges and rents would have on education authorities that use these facilities for their programmes?

Mr. Moynihan

This will not be the first time that I have strongly disagreed with Lewisham council. These proposals will yield better value for money for local authority expenditure. We shall have more effective management and better marketing of facilities and greater sensitivity to the community's needs.

As for pricing, perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to have a closer look at the proposals, which clearly state that there will be discretionary powers allowing councillors to continue to set prices and to subsidise specific groups if they wish. That matter will be debated at length when the order is published.

Sir Hugh Rossi

Will my hon. Friend look into the practice of Haringey council, which is to close its open air swimming pools and allow the sites to be occupied by so-called gipsies, or travellers, much to the disturbance of the local population?

Mr. Moynihan

I greatly regret that my hon. Friend's council should have made such a priority in spending its resources. It is very important that local authorities up and down the country should continue to make provision for sport and recreation facilities and to make that provision a high priority.

Mr. Pike

Surely the Minister recognises that it is not true to say that local councils will have discretion on charging policies. They will be bound by other sections of the Local Government Act 1988 and they will be affected by the poll tax Bill, which we shall finalise later today. The Bill will force local authorities to increase charges—or at least the people operating those facilities will put charges up. That will lead to reduced use and many people will be deprived of the sporting facilities that are now available.

Mr. Moynihan

I repeat that it is nonsense to suggest that prices will rise. Local authorities will continue to retain discretionary control over pricing, if they so wish. For the first time, local authorities will be required to identify the specific costs of operating their facilities. That must be good for the community charge payer and for the users of the facilities.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo

The need for sports facilities—which add greatly to the quality of life—is not in dispute. Is it not the case, however, that there is a world of difference between the capital cost of such provision and the cost of proper maintenance and use of them? Do not local authorities have a duty to recognise the revenue consequences of their capital investment and a duty to ensure continuing value for money?

Mr. Moynihan

Yes, they do.

Mr. Denis Howell

Will the Minister accept that, in addition to the figures that he has just given to the House, local authorities and the ratepayers have provided 650 athletic centres, 700 golf courses, 8,700 bowling greens and 33,000 tennis courts? Does it make any sense to prise away the management of 45,000 local authority sports facilities worth £5 billion to £6 billion? Has the Minister gone mad, or will he take away this ideological nonsense and assure the House that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment will not impose his pricing on local authorities, as he is empowered to do under the recent Act? Can the Minister name a single local authority association in this country—Left, Right or Centre—which supports this nonsense?

Mr. Moynihan

With regard to the right hon. Gentleman's list of different sporting facilities, the answer is that each and every one of them should benefit from competitive tendering for management contracts. When the right hon. Gentleman has the opportunity to review the responses to the consultative exercise that we did on the proposal, he will note that 216 local authorities have now had their specific concerns eased by the provision of discretionary price control. Ninety one local authorities were concerned about the implications for disadvantaged groups, and their concern has gone as a result of discretionary price control. The right hon. Gentleman said that he wanted the name of one local authority that supported the proposal. If he looks at the list in the Library he will find well over 200 authorities.