HC Deb 11 July 1988 vol 137 cc127-36

Queen's Recommendation having been signified—

Motion made, and Question proposed, That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the European Communities (Finance) Bill, it is expedient to authorise—

  1. (1) any increase attributable to that Act in the sums to be charged on and paid out of the Consolidated Fund or the National Loans Fund, or payable out of money provided by Parliament, under the European Communities Act 1972; and
  2. (2) the payment of any sums into the Consolidated Fund or the National Loans Fund.—[Mr. Brooke.]

10.33 pm
Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South)

The money resolution, which represents an increase in expenditure of at least £200 million to £300 million net and, according to the Minister earlier, as much as £1 billion gross, should not be allowed to pass unchallenged. That is against the background of some £4.7 billion in net expenditure to the Common Market. After all the grants, repayments and gains from rebates which the Prime Minister alleges, since 1984 we have paid out more than £4 billion, and we shall continue to do so. That money could be used for the excellent purpose of helping to rejuvenate and regenerate the National Health Service or in providing long-term jobs and stopping the continuing erosion of jobs to which the Common Market has led.

Membership of the EEC has been a millstone around our necks. We have a deficit in our balance of trade of manufactured goods of some £11 billion. The Minister said that some of the payments in this money resolution—between £200 million and £300 million—would go to the structural funds in order to offset the adverse impact of the development of the internal market by 1992. It is patently absurd for our Government to hand to another organisation money which it then scrutinises and from which it takes a hefty percentage for administration, only to hand some, but not all, back to us for some sort of remedial action in the regions. It is no longer in the province of the elected Government.

While I disagree with virtually everything that the Government do, they are elected and are to some degree accountable. Certainly, they will be accountable at the general election, which is not true of the Commissioners. It is largely the Commission and its machinery which decides where the money will be spent. The Council of Ministers, which meets in secret so is not publicly accountable as we are in this House, lays down only general spending guidelines. The Commission and various directorates-general decide where the money will go.

It is absurd for us to hand over an additional £200 million to £300 million only for many local authorities to spend large sums going in good faith to Brussels to plead their case cap in hand because, continually pressed by the Government through rate support grant cuts and so on, they are short of money. It is wrong, inefficient and undemocratic to hand money over to another body only to receive a relatively small proportion of it back.

Mr. Michael Fallon (Darlington)

I am more than uncommonly grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Is it not time that he straightened out his argument? Is it not a fact that most Socialist member states and Members of Parliament and the British Labour group argue for an increase in the structural funds which the hon. Gentleman is attacking? Why is he out of line?

Mr. Cryer

The hon. Gentleman, as usual, is badly misinformed. The vast majority of the Socialist group in the Common Market happen to be pro-Market fanatics. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh".] They are chosen on a list system based on proportional representation which a majority in this House would reject and which gives great power to the party ladership. In most Socialist parties in the EEC, if anybody steps out of line, he is immediately knocked off the list for that political dissent. I do not take too much notice of the hon. Gentleman's views.

The fact is that those of us in the British Labour group are critical of the maldistribution of Common Market funds—70 per cent. or therabouts goes to the common agricultural policy. Ever since we joined in 1973 members have been claiming that reform is round the corner or will come next year, but it never comes. The proportion of expenditure that goes on the CAP has been increasing, with one or two ebbs and flows, virtually since we entered the Common Market. I shall come to a report from the Select Committee which very much substantiates my claim.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

My hon. Friend said that in the Common Market countries other than Britain have a list system in which Members of Parliament are picked off according to how they fit in with their party. My hon. Friend raised a point of order about the Tory Chief Whip standing outside the Division Lobby ticking off the names of those Tory Members of Parliament who had voted with us against the Bill. One is bound to get the impression that Tory Members of Parliament are getting ready to operate their own list system.

Mr. Cryer

It sounds very much like that, as my hon. Friend says. I am worried about what shreds of democracy are left in the Tory party, judging by the way in which two brutal-looking thugs stood outside the No Lobby looking menacingly towards those who had voted with the Labour party.

Mr. Eric Forth (Mid-Worcestershire)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman has just been talking about thugs. There is an article in today's edition of The Independent about Sergeant Bob Cryer. Will you clarify, Mr. Deputy Speaker, whether the hon. Gentleman is the Sergeant Bob Cryer referred to in The Independent? He is talking about thugs——

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker)

Order. What appears in a newspaper is not a matter for me.

Mr. Cryer

I am most grateful. I am best able to decide which Bob Cryer is represented in The Independent or any other newspaper.

I should like to finish my comments about what the hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Fallon) said. There is——

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. I remind the House that it is contrary to our practice to read newspapers during debate.

Mr. Cryer

I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker for scrupulously carrying out the Standing Orders of the House and preventing Tory Members who who do not seem to know much about it from driving a coach and horses through them.

Let me get back to the hon. Member for Darlington. There is a pro-Market uncritical majority of all the parties in the Assembly, so anybody in the House who claims that the Assembly, called by some a Parliament—but it is in fact a consultative Assembly, that and no more—will act as some sort of check, is living in cloud-cuckoo-land.

Mr. Fallon

I am grateful, and I undertake to the hon. Gentleman, who has been most courteous, not to intervene again if he will answer this specific question. He referred to the proportion of agriculture expenditure increasing. I should have drawn his attention to the fact that throughout that time not only was there a Socialist majority in the European Assembly that he despises, but he was a member of it. I shall not labour that point, but I ask him this specific question. Does he now still perceive that Socialist majority, including the British Labour group, to be uncritical, and if so, will he vote for it in next year's elections?

Mr. Cryer

The Socialist majority that the hon. Gentleman talks about is an illusion. There is not a Socialist majority in the Common Market Assembly. The Socialist group represents about 150 out of 450 and on anybody's calculation that is a minority. When one couples up all the European democrats, the Le Pen Fascist group and the rest of the Right wing, they have a majority. When one couples up those who are Euro-fanatics and totally uncritical, there is an even bigger majority.

As I mentioned, the Assembly does not represent a critical body. There are strong strains and pressures for federalism, and for even more power to be taken away from bodies such as this and put across to the Assemblies in Brussels and Strasbourg. Jacques Delors does not represent an isolated strain, talking to a particular audience. His view is representative of the majority of the Commission and almost certainly the majority of the Assembly.

The Single European Act started out as a campaign by Alteiro Spinelli, a member of the Communist list in Italy, and his campaign was supported by the European Democrats, the Christian Democrats and the Liberal Democrats, but not, at any stage, by the British Labour group. That campaign by Spinelli was to wrest power from the member states and transfer it to the EEC assembly.

Sir Jim Spicer (Dorset, West)

rose——

Mr. Cryer

We are discussing the money resolution, and I shall resist the temptation to give way.

Sir Jim Spicer

rose——

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. It is clear that the hon. Gentleman does not intend to give way.

Mr. Cryer

I just wish that some of the Tory hooligans were better behaved. They set a poor example when they stand up against your express wishes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as well as mine.

Sir Jim Spicer

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Cryer

No.

The fifth report of the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee was referred to in the debate. It is a Committee with a Conservative majority, and on page 7 of its report, it states: We are not convinced that an inter-institutional agreement is the equivalent of a firm and legally binding text. Given the Community's failure in the past to control its expenditure and notwithstanding the many significant improvements which were agreed at the Brussels summit, we believe there are still grounds for remaining sceptical about the prospects for proper budgetary control in the future. We believe the Government should press the Community to adopt the most rigorous forms of budget management. Although the Government may press the case, our experience from 1973 onwards is that there is little or no budgetary control. The Select Committe, which has a Conservative majority, sets that out lucidly. Therefore I believe that we must have strong reservations about a money resolution that hands over between another £200 million and £400 million to a body that experience and its proven record has shown to be incapable of budgetary control.

We may suppose that some of that money will come back, but to hand money to another body, which has proved itself to be inefficient, in the hope that we will get a tiny share of it back, is an extremely inefficient way in which to deal with the matter. The money resolution, in common with the Bill, is much misplaced.

10.48 pm
Mr. Michael Fallon (Darlington)

The hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) has an honourable record in opposing the expansion of European expenditure.

When I came in to listen to the hon. Gentleman I thought that he might say something that I could support. I then discovered that he was objecting to an increase in European expenditure on the grounds that the European Parliament—or "the Assembly" as he has described and criticised it—would be assenting to that expenditure. Back in 1984, he offered himself to the European electorate as a member of that European Assembly and for five long years he sat as a member of it. Had the same argument come from the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), we would have treated it with slightly more respect. Instead, it came from an hon. Member who took European money, air tickets, jobs, junkets and expenses. He now has the nerve to lecture us on increases in European expenditure.

Mr. John Marshall (Hendon, South)

rose——

Mr. Fallon

I am so shocked that I can only give way t o my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall).

Mr. Marshall

Is my hon. Friend aware that the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) voted in favour of taking note of the sixth VAT directive, which he has been so busy criticising in recent weeks?

Mr. Fallon

That directive is outside the scope of the resolution that is before us.

We must not disregard the fact that the hon. Member for Bradford, South was a part of the European Assembly, and voted time and time again for increases in the European budget and increases in the structural funds—the philosophy and the theory of social space, which we now hear so much about on behalf of the poorer member states. The hon. Gentleman voted for the extra moneys. Yet he has the nerve to lecture us about increases for the funds.

We know that we have a far greater chance of controlling the funds and regulation expenditure through our Ministers at the Council of Ministers than the Ministers that the hon. Member for Bradford, South would have supported. There may be other financial resolutions on which the hon. Gentleman and I will agree, but he should be the last person to lecture the House on European expenditure. I have one piece of advice for the hon. Gentleman before he tells us what view we should take of the resolution and before we come to vote in the European elections next May. If I were the hon. Gentleman, I would keep very quiet.

10.52pm

The Paymaster General(Mr. Peter Brooke)

I owe an apology to the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) for not giving way to him in the concluding minutes of the Second Reading debate. I am delighted to have the opportunity of rendering that apology. I think that I have the general purport of what he would have said if he had intervened at that stage. I apologise also to the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) for not saying that I would answer the questions which he asked subsequently to the one to which I responded. I understand that he intended his final question to be broadly rhetorical.

Mr. Dalyell

The final question on Mr. Powell is the most interesting.

Mr. Brooke

There was one question not asked of me during the Second Reading debate which would have been relevant to the resolution and to which I should like to allude. No one asked me what would happen if we were asked for intergovernmental agreement payments before the Bill has been enacted. It is likely that IGA payments will be requested from I August. If the Bill has not been enacted by then, the Government envisage making payments from the contingency fund, given that the House has signalled its approval of the principle of making IGA payments by giving the Bill a Second Reading.

This would be in accordance with the purpose of the contingency fund to meet urgent services in Anticipation of provision for those services by Parliament. At the same time it would take account of the key tests on the use of the fund, including, as explained by the then Financial Secretary to the Treasury in 1974, the right hon. Member for Dudley, East (Dr. Gilbert): No Government of either party would be reckless enough to incur expenditure on any subject by using the fund if they thought there was any possibility of Parliament's later rejecting the substantive proposals when placed before the House."—[Official Report, 14 May 1974; Vol. 873, c. 1250.] The advances from the contingency fund would be repaid through the Consolidated Fund once the Bill had received Royal Assent.

Mr. George Robertson (Hamilton)

Why should the Paymaster General be so presumptuous after the Bill has received a Second Reading? The Bill has two separate and distinct components and I should like to know why he presumes that the House will approve it in Committee and on Third Reading. Why was this not part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, or that of the Foreign Secretary, on Second Reading? The House should have been told at that stage that this strange, perverse and, I would suggest, probably unprecedented procedure would be followed in the circumstances that have been outlined by the Paymaster General.

Mr. Brooke

It is not unprecedented, because I alluded to the guidance given by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in the Labour Administration in 1974 as to the use of the contingency fund.

As to the likelihood of the Bill being defeated, I draw to the attention of the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) the fact that the majority on Second Reading exceeded by a substantial majority the Government's natural majority in the House. Even the presence of the right hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Kinnock), the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) and the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) would not be enough to make up for that deficit.

Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South)

The question was not asked, at least in one quarter, because the contingency would not appear to arise. The Paymaster General will know that the undertaking is not given to the Commission or to the Council, but is an undertaking of member states outside the treaty. He has just told us that there may be a request for the money to be paid, but who can legally make such a request? The undertaking is outside the terms of the treaty of Rome and formally nothing to do with the EEC.

Mr. Brooke

The hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) knows, because of the procedures through which we have been at various stages, including evidence that I have given to the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee, that the procedures relating to the budget for 1988 contained an assumption that in the fulness of time there would be an IGA. That IGA has now been agreed by the member states, but I agree that it is subject to the approval of both Houses and to a request for payment. That contingency may arise on 1 August.

Question put:—

The House divided: Ayes 296, Noes 50.

Division No. 405] [10.56 pm
AYES
Alexander, Richard Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Bowis, John
Allason, Rupert Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes
Amess, David Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard
Amos, Alan Brandon-Bravo, Martin
Arbuthnot, James Brazier, Julian
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) Bright, Graham
Ashby, David Brittan, Rt Hon Leon
Atkins, Robert Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Atkinson, David Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) Browne, John (Winchester)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)
Baldry, Tony Buck, Sir Antony
Batiste, Spencer Burns, Simon
Bendall, Vivian Burt, Alistair
Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) Butcher, John
Benyon, W. Butler, Chris
Bevan, David Gilroy Butterfill, John
Blackburn, Dr John G. Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Boswell, Tim Carrington, Matthew
Bottomley, Peter Cash, William
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n) Chapman, Sydney
Chope, Christopher Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)
Churchill, Mr Hunter, Andrew
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) Irvine, Michael
Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) Jack, Michael
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) Jackson, Robert
Coombs, Simon (Swindon) Jessel, Toby
Cope, Rt Hon John Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Couchman, James Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Cran, James Jones, Robert B (Herts W)
Currie, Mrs Edwina Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Curry, David Key, Robert
Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)
Davis, David (Boothferry) Kirkhope, Timothy
Day, Stephen Knapman, Roger
Devlin, Tim Knight, Greg (Derby North)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Dunn, Bob Knowles, Michael
Durant, Tony Knox, David
Dykes, Hugh Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Eggar, Tim Lang, Ian
Emery, Sir Peter Latham, Michael
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) Lawrence, Ivan
Evennett, David Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)
Fallon, Michael Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Favell, Tony Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)
Fearn, Ronald Lightbown, David
Fenner, Dame Peggy Livsey, Richard
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey Lord, Michael
Fookes, Miss Janet Luce, Rt Hon Richard
Forman, Nigel Lyell, Sir Nicholas
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) McCrindle, Robert
Forth, Eric Macfarlane, Sir Neil
Fox, Sir Marcus MacGregor, Rt Hon John
Franks, Cecil MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)
Freeman, Roger Maclean, David
French, Douglas McLoughlin, Patrick
Gale, Roger McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael
Gardiner, George McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)
Gill, Christopher Madel, David
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian Major, Rt Hon John
Glyn, Dr Alan Malins, Humfrey
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles Mans, Keith
Gorst, John Maples, John
Gow, Ian Marland, Paul
Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW) Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Greenway, John (Ryedale) Mates, Michael
Gregory, Conal Maude, Hon Francis
Grist, Ian Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Ground, Patrick Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Grylls, Michael Mellor, David
Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) Meyer, Sir Anthony
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) Miller, Sir Hal
Hanley, Jeremy Mills, Iain
Hannam, John Miscampbell, Norman
Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'II Gr') Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) Mitchell, David (Hants NW)
Harris, David Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Haselhurst, Alan Morrison, Sir Charles
Hawkins, Christopher Morrison, Rt Hon P (Chester)
Hayes, Jerry Moss, Malcolm
Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney Moynihan, Hon Colin
Hayward, Robert Mudd, David
Heathcoat-Amory, David Neale, Gerrard
Heddle, John Needham, Richard
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L Nelson, Anthony
Hill, James Neubert, Michael
Hind, Kenneth Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) Nicholls, Patrick
Holt, Richard Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Hordern, Sir Peter Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
Howard, Michael Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley
Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) Oppenheim, Phillip
Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) Page, Richard
Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Paice, James
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) Patnick, Irvine
Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) Patten, Chris (Bath)
Hunt, David (Wirral W) Patten, John (Oxford W)
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)
Pawsey, James Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth Stradling Thomas, Sir John
Porter, David (Waveney) Sumberg, David
Powell, William (Corby) Summerson, Hugo
Price, Sir David Tapsell, Sir Peter
Raffan, Keith Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Raison, Rt Hon Timothy Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Rathbone, Tim Temple-Morris, Peter
Renton, Tim Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)
Rhodes James, Robert Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Riddick, Graham Thorne, Neil
Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas Thornton, Malcolm
Ridsdale, Sir Julian Thurnham, Peter
Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) Tredinnick, David
Roe, Mrs Marion Trippier, David
Rossi, Sir Hugh Trotter, Neville
Rost, Peter Twinn, Dr Ian
Rowe, Andrew Viggers, Peter
Rumbold, Mrs Angela Waddington, Rt Hon David
Ryder, Richard Wakeham, Rt Hon John
Sackville, Hon Tom Waldegrave, Hon William
Sainsbury, Hon Tim Walden, George
Salmond, Alex Waller, Gary
Sayeed, Jonathan Ward, John
Shaw, David (Dover) Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) Wells, Bowen
Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)
Shelton, William (Streatham) Wheeler, John
Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) Whitney, Ray
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Widdecombe, Ann
Shersby, Michael Wiggin, Jerry
Sims, Roger Wigley, Dafydd
Skeet, Sir Trevor Wilkinson, John
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) Wilshire, David
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) Wolfson, Mark
Speed, Keith Wood, Timothy
Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W) Woodcock, Mike
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) Yeo, Tim
Squire, Robin Young, Sir George (Acton)
Stanbrook, Ivor
Stanley, Rt Hon John Tellers for the Ayes:
Stern, Michael Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones and Mr. Robert Boscawen.
Stevens, Lewis
NOES
Allen, Graham Lamond, James
Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) Leighton, Ron
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Loyden, Eddie
Bermingham, Gerald McAvoy, Thomas
Biffen, Rt Hon John McFall, John
Body, Sir Richard McWilliam, John
Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith) Madden, Max
Buckley. George J. Mahon, Mrs Alice
Campbell-Savours, D. N. Millan, Rt Hon Bruce
Canavan, Dennis Moonie, Dr Lewis
Clay, Bob Parry, Robert
Cohen, Harry Patchett, Terry
Corbyn, Jeremy Primarolo, Dawn
Dalyell, Tam Rogers, Allan
Eadie, Alexander Rowlands, Ted
Evans, John (St Helens N) Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E) Skinner, Dennis
Flannery, Martin Spearing, Nigel
Galloway, George Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Garrett, John (Norwich South) Williams, Alan W. (Carm'thon)
Gordon, Mildred Wilson, Brian
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) Winnick, David
Grocott, Bruce Wise, Mrs Audrey
Heffer, Eric S.
Hinchliffe, David Tellers for the Noes:
Hughes, Roy (Newport E) Mr. Bob Cryer and Mr. Martin Redmond
Lambie, David

Question accordingly agreed to.

Resolved, That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the European Communities (Finance) Bill, is is expedient to authorise—

(1) any increase attributable to that Act in the sums to be charged on and paid out of the Consolidated Fund or the National Loans Fund, or payable out of money provided by Parliament, under the European Communities Act 1972; and

(2) the payment of any sums into the Consolidated Fund or the National Loans Fund.