HC Deb 18 January 1988 vol 125 cc657-60
4. Mr. Ray Powell

To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairmen of health authorities in Wales; and what subjects were discussed.

Mr. Peter Walker

I met the Welsh health auhorities chairmen's committee on 23 November 1987. The main subjects discussed were cash management, locum agencies, medical staff matters, competitive tendering, waiting lists and community health councils.

Mr. Powell

Having had that meeting, the Secretary of State will be as well aware as we are that the problem in the Health Service in Wales is underfunding by the Government. Is he prepared to tell us today that he will provide the funding required by the area health authorities? Is he aware that Mid Glamorgan alone is looking for at least £4.6 million to prevent beds being closed? Alternatively, will the Secretary of State have a word with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ensure that money is invested in the Health Service rather than given away in tax benefits? Does he agree that it is no use taxpayers having tax benefits today if they are going to be dead tomorrow because they do not have the service that should be provided by the NHS?

Mr. Walker

rose—

Mr. Powell

I have not finished yet.

Mr. Speaker

Briefly.

Mr. Powell

I shall be brief, Mr. Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) last week accused the Prime Minister of having blood on her hands with regard to the Health Service. I hope that it is not rubbing off on the Secretary of State.

Mr. Walker

We had a good and constructive meeting with the chairmen of the area health authorities, as I believe they will confirm. The figures that I have announced for the Helth Service in the coming year show quite a substantial increase. When considering these factors and claiming that the Health Service is underfunded, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will bear in mind that Health Service expenditure in Wales next year will be £1,238 per household compared with £418 in 1978–79.

Mr. Ray Powell

What is the increase in real terms?

Mr. Walker

In real terms it is an increase of 39 per cent., so it ill becomes the Opposition to condemn what has been done.

Mr. Livsey

What formula is being applied to the closure of NHS beds and wards in relation to the increasing number of private beds, which seems to militate against NHS provision very seriously indeed?

Mr. Walker

With regard to the availability of beds, the most important measure is the number of patients treated, which this year is at an all-time record level and massively greater than a few years ago. I believe that that trend will continue. That is the important judgment.

There are, of course, increasing demands on the Health Service as new breakthroughs in medicine take place. That will always be so, whichever Government are in power. We have substantially increased expenditure in Wales and are continuing to do so. The hon. Gentleman referred to Mid Glamorgan. Capital allowance to the district authority next year will show an increase of 21 per cent. in one year, so a great deal is being done.

Mr. Forth

Did my right hon. Friend discuss with the chairmen of the health authorities the number of new hospitals built in Wales in the past few years and the increased number of patients being treated? Did he reassure the chairmen that his priorities include, not just the number of beds at any given time, but the number of people receiving quality treatment from the Health Service? Did he receive positive answers from the chairmen, and was he able to reassure them on all those points?

Mr. Walker

Yes, Sir. In the past 10 years there has been considerable capital investment in new hospitals in Wales, but that does not remove the anxiety of a person who has to wait to see a consultant or to be admitted for an operation. Anyone who knows people with such problems will appreciate their anxiety. There is room for greater efficiency in the Health Service. There is also a need for increased capital and current expenditure. Both needs are being met.

Mr. Gareth Wardell

In view of that very encouraging reply, will the Secretary of State give a guarantee that no woman in the future will go through the experience of some women in south Wales who have had to wait up to 83 days from confirmation of cervical carcinoma to gain admission for treatment at Singleton hospital in Swansea and Felindre hospital in Cardiff?

Mr. Walker

I am sure that at any time after the last war, and since the creation of the National Health Service, one could indentify ghastly individual cases that have not received attention. However, that is not likely always to be the position. For example, there is a question on the Order Paper today to which I will make a written reply. That question asks me for the comparative figures for waiting lists between 1978 and the present day. Significantly, the hon. Gentleman concerned asked for the figures from March 1978 and not March 1979. I will also provide the figures for March 1979, because they show the massive deterioration that took place in that 12 months.

Mr. Nicholas Bennett

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the considerable concern in Pembrokeshire where, according to the Welsh Office's figures, the authority is 5.2 per cent. below the Yates' formula? Will he also bear in mind that some health authorities are not only overfunded on the Yates' formula, but overspent? Pembrokeshire, which is a very good and most efficient authority, is converned that it is losing out.

Mr. Walker

All the area chairmen whom I met, without exception, wanted to improve financial control and managerial competence. We must give careful consideration to the quality of staff that the chairmen need to recruit for those purposes.

Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones

Will the Secretary of State ask the chairman of Gwynedd health authority to conduct an inquiry into reports that, following the closure of a maternity ward at St. David's hospital, Bangor on Wednesday of last week, expectant mothers were unable to gain admission to that hospital and mothers who had given birth were unable to return to wards? Will he bear in mind that a happy and fulfilling time for many families was turned into a distressing experience for them and for the staff who had to care for them? When he next meets the chairman of the health authority, will he discuss with her the level of funding needed for the authority to ensure that such a distressing experience does not happen again?

Mr. Walker

As we know, further allocations for the last months of this year have been given to all authorities, including Gwynedd. I shall certainly put to the authority chairman the points that the hon. Gentleman has made.

Sir Raymond Gower

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is much evidence of increased longevity throughout the free world and that, however the systems of health and hospitals are funded, the new and expensive treatments are creating strains for health services?

Mr. Walker

Yes, Sir. That is bound to happen because of the major breakthroughs. For example, the figures for hip operations have been transformed over the years because of the changes in the medical profession. The number of elderly people is increasing. However, we must all understand that the need to have proper treatment, if it is available, is a natural aspiration of every family. I shall repeat the figures and state that when we came to office £8 a week was spent per household in Wales, and the figure is now £24. That is a substantial improvement.

Mr. Alan Williams

Despite what the Secretary of State says, will he confirm that the rate of increase in expenditure on the National Health Service in Wales under this Administration is little more than a half of what it was under the Labour Administration? As the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave £6,000 million in tax cuts last year and is apparently going to give at least the same figure this year in his next Budget, is the right hon. Gentleman not ashamed that all that he could offer the Health Service in Wales and the beleaguered health authorities was £3.8 million extra this year and a standstill on finances for next year? Will he bear in mind that because of the cash crisis in our chest, kidney dialysis and acute services, with up to four-year waiting lists, we want the Chancellor to use all the resources not further to enrich the already wealthy, but to save the Health Service for our people?

Mr. Walker

I find that a bit thick coming from the right hon. Gentleman. He sat silently as a Minister in the Government who made the biggest cuts in the capital investment programme in the Health Service of any post-war Government. He sat there without a whimper, complaint or a single word. If he is proud of the fact that when the Labour Government left office they were spending £8 per week per household in comparison to our £24 a week, I find that very surprising.