Nurses

HC Deb 24 February 1988 vol 128 cc279-82

1. Dr. Reid

To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many nurses in Scotland have left the National Health Service in each of the last 10 years; and if he will express that number as a percentage of the total number employed in each of those years.

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Malcolm Rifkind)

The number of nursing staff in the NHS in Scotland increased from 53,000 to 63,250 whole-time equivalent over the last 10 years. Information about nurses leaving the service could be made available only at disproportionate cost.

Dr. Reid

It is amazing that the Secretary of State does not know how many nurses leave the profession every year. It is estimated that, every year, 30,000 trained nurses leave the profession. Does the Secretary of State think that that is because morale is at rock bottom? Why are thousands of devoted health workers in Scotland taking further action today? Is it because, as his colleague the Minister with responsibility for health in Scotland pretends, they are all Militant clones, or because they care a damned sight more about the Health Service than do the Minister and his colleagues?

Mr. Rifkind

First, with regard to morale in the Health Service, it is perhaps significant that when the Royal College of Nursing met my right hon. Friend the Minister for Health it did not raise the matter of morale among nurses. As the hon. Gentleman knows, many of those who leave the nursing profession leave temporarily or for personal or family reasons. It is surely significant that, under this Government, there has been a major increase in the number of nurses and that the real income of nurses in Scotland has increased by 30 per cent., whereas it fell by 21 per cent. in real terms under the Labour Government.

Mr. Fairbairn

Will my right hon. and learned Friend note that today's day of action has nothing to do with soul baring by the nurses? It is a strike by NUPE, which is anxious to keep up its numbers and is unwilling to have competitive tendering. The whole purpose and thrust of the day of action is not to keep viable patients alive but to keep moribund unions alive.

Mr. Rifkind

My hon. and learned Friend is quite right. It will be interesting to know the Opposition's view on the damage that is being done to patients in Scotland by the industrial disruption that has been taking place over the past few weeks. For example, we understand that between 11 February and 23 February, in the Glasgow Royal infirmary and in Stobhill hospital, more than 330 operations were either postponed or cancelled as a result of industrial action; in Lanarkshire, more than 100 operations at Law and Strathclyde hospitals were postponed because of a 24-hour walk-out by non-nursing staff; and there were reports that more than 250 operations in Lothian were cancelled because of industrial action. It will be interesting to know whether Her Majesty's Opposition approve of the damage that is being done to patient care by industrial action of the kind that we are seeing.

Mr. Ernie Ross

The Secretary of State will know that nurses, ancillary workers and manufacturing workers are on the cobbles today because of serious concern about the National Health Service in Scotland. What comment would he make to a staff nurse who earns £65 a week less than a policeman earns?

Mr. Rifkind

The point that I would make to her is that her income has increased considerably under this Government, whereas it declined under the Labour Government. Those in the National Health Service who say that they are interested in the welfare of patients have a strange way of showing such interest if their actions result in operations being postponed or cancelled and the greatest discomfort to patients. If Opposition Members have the interests of patients at heart they should follow the lead of the Royal College of Nursing, which has never allowed grievances, real or imaginary, to result in harm to patients in Scotland or anywhere else. That is what real interest in the NHS is all about.

Mr. Bill Walker

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that what has come through clearly in the dispute is that the real professionals—members of the Royal College of Nursing, who care about patients—attend to their duties, as they are doing today? It is important to recognise that patient care is what matters, and not the care of trade unions, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Perth and Kinross (Mr. Fairbairn) said.

Mr. Rifkind

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There has been a great deal of interest in waiting lists in Scotland over the past few weeks. It is significant that two things have happened with regard to waiting lists: first, that the Government have been able to make available an extra £3.6 million, which has reduced waiting lists; and, secondly, that industrial action by ancillary and other staff, which appears to be supported by Opposition Members, has led to the cancellation of hundreds of operations, which will undoubtedly add to waiting lists in the weeks and months to come.

Dr. Moonie

Does the Secretary of State realise that the industrial action in Scotland today is due directly to his folly and incompetence and that of his ministerial colleagues and their failure to recognise the depth of feeling against the damage caused by the Government? Does he not realise the contribution that low pay makes to ill-health in Scotland? Will he, even at this late stage, change his mind and act to the benefit of Scotland, instead of to its detriment?

Mr. Rifkind

The hon. Gentleman should understand the alleged purpose of today's industrial action. The trade unions have told us that it is not about low pay; it is about the Government's policy of competitive tendering. That is a means of ensuring that resources in the National Health Service will, so far as possible, be made available to help patients rather than anyone else.

Mr. Kirkwood

Will the Secretary of State accept that, for my part, I do not believe that industrial action is appropriate at this stage? If he wants to do something about the morale of nurses and support the work of the Royal College of Nursing, he should consider the problems of recruiting nurses in future because of demographic changes. He could do much to help and raise the morale of nurses if he would tell us the Government's reaction to the Project 2,000 proposals and put extra resources into the clinical regrading and restructuring that is necessary. That would keep nurses in the profession and prevent problems about recruitment in future.

Mr. Rifkind

I note the point that the hon. Gentleman made in the latter part of his question. Only a Liberal could analyse today's action on the basis that the Liberals were against industrial action at the present time.

Mr. Neil Hamilton

Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that operations in Scotland are not being cancelled because of a shortage of nurses, but that they will be cancelled as a result of this politically motivated action by public sector unions with their snouts in the trough of taxpayers' money attempting to preserve their own privileges? Will he confirm that, because fewer than half the Scottish Labour Members are present today, the rest are on strike?

Mr. Rifkind

My hon. Friend must not draw too many conclusions from that. During the debate on Ravenscraig and the steel industry yesterday, only the hon. Members for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar), for Motherwell, North (Dr. Reid) and for Motherwell, South (Dr. Bray) chose to be present during the opening speeches and for most of the debate.

Mr. Harry Ewing

Is the Secretary of State proud of the fact that he is the only Secretary of State in the history of that great office to provoke the caring nursing profession into strike action? Is it only because he has now lost his own self-respect that he does not resign?

Mr. Rifkind

I remind the hon. Gentleman that, far from the nursing profession being on strike, the Royal College of Nursing has reported that since the beginning of the present industrial action there has been a large influx of nurses into the Royal College of Nursing from other unions. That has happened on a larger scale in Scotland than in any other part of the United Kingdom.

Mr. Dewar

Is there a Scottish Office Minister among the ministerial group set up by the Prime Minister to review the funding of the National Health Service? If not, why not? Will the Scottish Office be bound by any scheme dreamt up by the right hon. Lady in this important and sensitive area? The Opposition unanimously feel that the day of protest in Scotland today is fully justified—[Interruption.] It has been caused by the obstinacy of the Secretary of State, who insists on a policy of irrelevant privatisation, and by the continuing crisis over the funding of the Health Service. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that the Select Committee on Social Services has calculated that a 2 per cent. increase in real terms in the Health Service budget is necessary for it to stand still? In the right hon. and learned Gentleman's commentary on public expenditure, published this month, he says that a 1 per cent. increase is necessary to stand still, yet the figure for the hospital and community service programme shows that that figure is not being reached. Is it true that, having set his own criteria, he has failed to meet them and that that is the reason for the justified discontent in the Health Service?

Mr. Rifkind

I am glad that we now have that on record. The hon. Gentleman, with all the authority of the position that he holds in the Labour party, says that he and his colleagues are fully behind the disruption of the NHS. Presumably, they are accepting —[Interruption.] — full responsibility for the operations that are being postponed or cancelled as a result of that disruption. In the light of the hon. Gentleman's comments, I hope that in the weeks and months to come we will hear no more sanctimonious claptrap and synthetic concern from him about the length of waiting lists in Scotland and the problems of those who require operations under the NHS.