Education (Strathclyde) (Hansard, 24 February 1988)

§ 9. Mr. Michael J. Martin
To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to improve education facilities in Strathclyde; and if he will make a statement.

§ Mr. Michael Forsyth
The provision and improvement of education facilities in Strathclyde is primarily a matter for the regional council, taking account of available resources and, where, appropriate, the wishes of parents.

§ Mr. Martin
The Minister and the Prime Minister intervened in the proposed closure of Paisley grammar school. I do not begrudge that school remaining open, but the hon. Gentleman must know that in my constituency, Colston, Rosemount, St. Bede's and St. Rock's are all supported wholeheartedly by the parents, who want to keep them open. Why is the Minister making flesh of some schools and fowl of others? Why is he not prepared to intervene to help out those schools?

§ Mr. Forsyth
The hon. Gentleman mentioned schools in his constituency. He will know that St. Bede's is a denominational school, and the case may come to my right 292 hon. and learned Friend for his consideration. I have already answered a question by the hon. Gentleman on that subject. As for non-denominational schools, where travelling distances are not excessive, and where the schools operate at less than 80 per cent. capacity, it is entirely a matter for Strathclyde regional council, with which I should have thought the hon. Gentleman had some influence.

§ Mr. Allan Stewart
Is my hon. Friend aware of the volume of correspondence that I am receiving from parents in Strathclyde, who want the Government to give them the chance to consider whether to opt out of the Strathclyde regional council system? Why is my hon. Friend so reluctant to move on the matter? Is he further aware that all parents, pupils and ratepayers in Strathclyde have a right to reasonable decision-making? Is it not a disgrace and an outrage that today Strathclyde regional council will be adjourned because Labour members are too indolent to attend, as they wish to wave NUPE banners rather than do the job for which they were elected?

§ Mr. Forsyth
The events of today and recent months, and the conduct of their elected representatives, will give the people of Strathclyde something to think about. With regard to opting out, my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State has said that we will consider any arguments that are put forward in Committee on the Bill, but my hon. Friend will recognise that we have no history of school boards or parental involvement in schools in Scotland—

§ Mr. Forth
It is time that my hon. Friend had some.

§ Mr. Forsyth
I say to my hon. Friend, who intervenes from a sedentory position, that the forthcoming Bill will give Scotland an opportunity to make progress on that matter.

§ Mr. Buchan
Has the Minister read the devastating document issued by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments condemning his squalid set of regulations? It said that the regulations were illegal in the sense that they did not comply with the Act, and that they were defective in the sense that they could not be corrected or understood. Should he not apologise for his part in the squalid conspiracy that led to the sequence of events, withdraw the regulations and have an early debate on the behaviour of himself in going over the head of the Secretary of State, in alliance with the Prime Minister, and his intervention in the proper, legal behaviour of Strathclyde regional council?

§ Mr. Forsyth
As the hon. Gentleman knows, there will be an opportunity to debate the regulations. His account of the criticism of the regulations is somewhat exaggerated. The House will have a proper opportunity to consider the matter. The validity of the regulations is not in doubt. I imagine that the people of Paisley must be astonished to be represented by a Member of Parliament who has campaigned so hard to prevent one of the most successful schools in his area having an opportunity, should Strathclyde decide to close it, to have the decision reviewed by the Secretary of State.

§ Mr. John Marshall
Will my hon. Friend comment on the schizophrenia of Opposition Members? The hon. Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin) asked for Government intervention, and the hon. Member for Paisley, South (Mr. Buchan) objects to Government 293 intervention. Will my hon. Friend comment on the fact that Strathclyde regional council has the worst record in education of any of the Scottish regional councils? Is he happy that one pupil in four leaves Strathclyde schools without any qualification, a record basically equivalent to that of ILEA? Does he believe that the same treatment would be suitable for Strathclyde as is being accorded to ILEA?

§ Mr. Forsyth
My hon. Friend is right to point to the problems in Strathclyde. I understand that management consultants have been called in to help sort them out. As to the paradox that he identifies, it is a paradox that Labour Members are in favour of no Government intervention to save popular schools from closure, but call for Government intervention to keep open schools which are half empty and which parents do not support.

§ Mr. Norman Hogg
Is it not the case that the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has revealed that the Government's instrument concerning school closures is ambiguous, badly drafted and in breach of the rules and protocols of the House? Does he not accept that the heavy-handed diktat which he has applied in this case has created a shambles? Is it not time to call a halt and to withdraw the regulations so that the confusion which surrounds the matter can be clarified?

§ Mr. Forsyth
The criticism of the regulations was that we had not observed the 21-day rule. We did not observe it for the reason which we explained, which was that the region should know the position. As to the regulations being unclear about who decides, it is clear from the context of the main regulations and the parent Act that it is up to the local authority to decide whether it must refer a case to the Secretary of State. I am sure that the people of Scotland will note that the hon. Gentleman, the official spokesman for the Labour party on education in Scotland, does not want the parents of Strathclyde to have the opportunity, should Strathclyde decide to proceed with closure, to have that decision reviewed.

§ Mr. Buchan
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the grossly inadequate nature of that reply, I give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment. [Interruption.]

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. It is perfectly in order for the hon. Gentleman to do that.