§ Mr. Terry Dicks (Hayes and Harlington)(by private notice): To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on the near miss that took place on Saturday between a British Airways Tristar and a Bulgarian airliner.
§ The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Paul Channon)There was an air miss between a British Airways and a Bulgarian airliner on Saturday 6 February over Kent. The Civil Aviation Authority is investigating this incident. In view of the seriousness of the matter, my chief inspector of accidents has also begun an inspector's investigation. I can assure the House that the inspector's report will be published.
§ Mr. DicksI thank my right hon. Friend for that statement. I am grateful for the fact that he has taken the unusual precaution of involving the air accident investigation branch in the matter. Will he ensure that there is a speedy outcome to the inquiry in order to allay public concern about safety in the skies?
§ Mr. ChannonWe shall try to make the report as quick as possible. Evidence must be taken from a number of people—it cannot be done in two minutes. We shall try to make it as quick as possible, and it will be available for all to read. If the House wants copies placed in the Library, I shall be glad to arrange that.
§ Mr. David Steel (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale)Does the Secretary of State recall that in a speech last October I raised this matter because of my concern, as a regular user of the air space, about growing air traffic control delays, and that he accused me of irresponsible scaremongering? Will he withdraw that accusation and pay serious attention to the growing anxiety about the number of air traffic controllers who have left the service recently, and to the problems over the transition to new technology? Will he take on board the suggestion of the American Federal Aviation Administration that anti-collision warning devicies should be fitted in cockpits?
§ Mr. ChannonAnti-collision warning devices are being investigated, and I hope that during the course of the year decisions will be arrived at. It is important to have an international agreement on the matter, otherwise there will be a ridiculous state of affairs.
With respect to the right hon. Gentleman, I cannot withdraw what I said about his remarks last October, which were extremely unfair and unreasonable. I hope the House understands that the number of commercial aircraft involved in air misses in this country fell from 45 in 1977 to 16 in 1986, despite a large increase in traffic over the same period. The provisional number for the first four months of 1987 is four.
§ Mr. Norman Tebbit (Chingford)Will my right hon. Friend not merely refuse to withdraw what he said about irresponsible scaremongering, but repeat it in spades today? Will he further undertake that the inquiry into this extremely unusual occurrence, and into an extremely well-run air traffic control system, will not be unduly hastened by irresponsible scaremongering demands, but will be thorough and clear? I congratulate my right hon. Friend on saying that he will publish the report in full as soon as it is available.
§ Mr. ChannonI am very grateful to my right hon. Friend. I can give him the undertaking that he asked for in the last part of his question. It will be a full, clear and throrough report, and it will be published in full. This is a very unusual step to take, and I hope the House appreciates that I am taking this matter extremely seriously. The House must understand that this is an exceptional measure to take, but it is worth it in the circumstances.
As to the first part of my right hon. Friend's question, I adopt the formula that he used.
§ Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South)Does the Secretary of State agree that there is an anomaly in all these matters, in that the body set up to operate air traffic control — National Air Traffic Control Services — is responsible to the Civil Aviation Authority, which is responsible for making judgments in these matters? Is it not time to re-examine the basic legislation so that the confidence that the public and the House wish to have can be demonstrated?
§ Mr. ChannonI do not see any need to change the legislation at present. The duties are absolutely clear. The CAA is responsible for aviation safety. As the hon. Gentleman rightly points out, National Air Traffic Control Services is responsible jointly to the CAA and to the Ministry of Defence, but responsibility for aviation safety rests with the CAA. I am concerned that the highest standards should be applied by the CAA in carrying out that function. The figures that I have given for the past few years, which show a considerable reduction in the number of air misses despite an enormous increase in traffic, lead one to believe that that responsibility has been carried out well. However, let us see how the inquiry reports—I rule out nothing at this stage.
§ Mr. Terence L. Higgins (Worthing)Is not the risk of such incidents increased by traffic congestion on existing routes across the English Channel? Will my right hon. Friend therefore consider additional routes? In particular, will he consult his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence to see whether the considerable restrictions currently placed on cross-Channel routes can be removed?
§ Mr. ChannonI do not think that the CAA takes the view that air space capacity in this country is overstretched. Nevertheless, I will consider the point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins), who, I know, has a particular constituency point in mind.
§ Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)Is the Secretary of State aware that the air traffic controllers have expressed great concern to the CAA about staff shortages? As a concrete example, will he consider why just one air traffic controller at Edinburgh airport is expected to deal with, on average, 24 incoming flights between 10 pm and 7 am'' What happens if that one man is suddenly taken ill? Is it satisfactory that at a major airport such as Edinburgh one person must carry that responsibility for nine hours without even being able to go for a cup of tea?
§ Mr. ChannonI think that that goes a little wide of the question, but negotiations are taking place between the CAA and the trade unions on the subject of working practices for shift-working staff in the National Air Traffic Control Services. I am extremely concerned that all who are involved in this very important work should feel that 23 their worries and grievances are carefully considered. I believe that that is happening. I am sure the House will agree that in general the work of the air traffic controllers of this country has been superb.
§ Mr. Kenneth Warren (Hastings and Rye)As the incident took place on the border of my constituency and that of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard), we are greatly concerned about the situation in the future. Is my right hon. Friend aware that I thoroughly endorse the sense of proportion that he has shown, as this is just one incident in an outstanding record by air traffic controllers and by pilots flying over this country? Although we wish to ensure that the report is made public, I hope that that sense of proportion will be maintained in relation to the high standards of safety, on which there is no compromise.
§ Mr. ChannonI am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend, who makes a valid point with which I entirely agree. I have discussed the matter with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard). He was most anxious that the results of any investigation should be published, and I have managed to satisfy that wish, too.
§ Mr. Andrew Welsh (Angus, East)Is the Minister aware that if the EDRP project—the European demonstration reprocessing plant—goes ahead, there will be a further 200 flights per year carrying plutonium from France to Dounreay, involving a double risk from nuclear waste and additional flights? If he wishes to increase public safety, he should help to stop that project. If it goes ahead, what guarantees can he give?
§ Mr. ChannonThat is an entirely separate matter. As I have already said, responsibility for aviation safety—the only part of the hon. Gentleman's question that is relevant to my Department—rests with the CAA, which will obviously take great care to ensure that all flights are safe. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to raise specific points, such as that which he mentioned today, perhaps he will get in touch with the chairman of the CAA.
§ Mr. Robert McCrindle (Brentwood and Ongar)I heard what my right hon. Friend said about the statistics on near misses, but is it not a fact that the incident over the weekend was only one in a sequence, and that that has brought some justifiable concern among the public? I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend's decision to set up a separate inquiry. I suggest that until public concern can be allayed any future near miss incident be subjected to the same procedure.
§ Mr. ChannonI am sure my hon. Friend is aware that, in the various categories of near misses, the ones that are most worrying to the public are those where there is a definite, or possible, risk, rather than those in which it is later discovered that there was no risk whatsoever. As I have told the House, there has been a massive reduction in serious incidents over the years. I hope that that trend is continuing. I shall bear in mind what my hon. Friend said about the general question of near misses. I have told the House that this is a serious matter, and that is why I have taken this unusual course today.
§ Mr. Robert Hughes (Aberdeen, North)Will the Secretary of State take it from me that it does not help to allay public anxiety about near misses if he continually says that it is scaremongering if people raise serious issues about air traffic safety and air traffic control? Is it not the case that this matter is so serious that he has taken this unusual step?
Is not the fact that the CAA is investing more money in equipment a vindication of claims that the existing equipment is not up to scratch to face the future? Will the Secretary of State take up the air traffic controllers' offer to discuss matters with him and the CAA, as it is clear that there is concern about the number of air traffic controllers on duty and the amount of work that they have to do in the time available? In addition to publishing his inspectors' report, a proposal which I welcome, will the Secretary of State publish the CAA report? Will he make sure that these matters are published swiftly? What guarantee has he that we can get access to the foreign pilots, who may not be available to give their evidence direct?
§ Mr. ChannonThat is something that my air accident investigation branch will have to pursue. I see no reason to assume that that is at all likely.
As to the question of equipment and investment by the CAA, we are appraising a particular scheme. We have authorised massive investment by the CAA. Aviation safety is a paramount objective, and I shall go on authorising sensible investment in order to improve the situation still further. That is the crucial point.
As to "irresponsible scaremongering" I have not accused the hon. Gentleman of that. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would care to read the speech of the right hon. Member the leader of the Liberal party to see whether he agrees with me or not. I did not raise that matter this afternoon, the right hon. Gentleman did, and I had hoped that it was an incident long since forgotten.
This was a serious incident, which is why it is right that the public should have the full facts placed in front of them. The air accident investigation report will provide a useful public service. We shall have to wait and see what it says, and if it does allay public anxiety, as I hope it will, that will be good. If there are reasons for public anxiety, they must be tackled and dealt with.
§ Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerNo, I will take points of order afterwards.
§ Mr. RogersOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Private notice questions are an extension of Question Time. We will take points of order at the proper time.
§ Mr. RogersOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerNo, I am not taking it now. The hon. Gentleman can raise his point of order at the proper time.
§ Mr. RogersOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman is a Front-Bench spokesman. He knows that we take points of order at the proper time, and today that is after the Standing Order No. 20 application.