HC Deb 29 April 1988 vol 132 cc673-83
Mr. Kirkwood

I beg to move amendment No. 3, in page 2, line 1, leave out from 'apply' to end of line 6 and insert— 'and before obtaining such consent has—

  1. (b) informed the individual in writing of the individual's right under this Act—
    1. (i) to have access to the report before it is supplied by the medical practitioner provided that the individual has contacted the practitioner and arranged to have access within the period specified in subsection (2) or subsection (3) of section (Access before supply of report) below.
    2. (ii) to have access to a report which has been supplied for a period of six months from the date on which it was supplied; and
    3. (iii) to seek the correction of information which is incorrect or misleading in accordance with section 5(2) below; and
    4. (iv) to prevent the supply of a report in accordance with section 5(3) below; and
  2. (c) invited the individual in writing to give notice in writing to the person seeking the report, when giving the consent referred to in this section, indicating whether he or she wishes to have access to a report before it is supplied.'.

The First Deputy Chairman

With this we may discuss the following: Amendments Nos. 5 and 6,

New clause 1—Access before reply of report

New clause 2—Application to the court

Mr. Kirkwood

As the Minister said earlier, the House is conscious of the fact that this Bill received a formal Second Reading. Although I understand that the House wishes to proceed to a later important debate, as some substantial issues arise in this group of amendments I wish to spend a few moments considering them in some detail.

The amendments are an attempt to strengthen and clarify the individual rights provided in the Bill, whose aim is to give people the new right to see the medical reports that their general practitioners, or any other doctors who have been responsible for their care, provide to an insurance company or an employer. Such reports are already supplied strictly with the consent of the person concerned, as is right and proper, but, at present, they are not available as of right to that person. The essence of the Bill is to make them available as of right.

Amendment No. 3 contains several important changes that repay some consideration. It will ensure that people are more fully informed of their new rights when they are asked to consent to a medical report being obtained. At present, a person applying for an insurance policy—or for a job, for that matter—is sent a form by the insurance company or the prospective employer. Normally, that form requests permission to approach the person's doctor. Under clauses 3, 4 and 5 of the Bill as it stands, they will also have an additional right to tell them of their new right of access and any other rights that are contained in the Bill. Some of the amendments extend such rights—for example, by allowing the correction of mistakes. If the amendments are passed, the current notification provisions will be extended.

I wish to be open and honest with the Committee. I have discussed the Bill with the Association of British Insurers and others. Like the Under-Secretary of State, that association has other fish to fry, but it has co-operated and tried to make the Bill as practical and workable as possible. The association was concerned, and made representations to me to the effect that the Bill contained some worrying features—for example, that there was no time limit for seeking access. It rightly suggested that, under the Bill as it stands, in certain circumstances a doctor could not know whether a patient was likely to want to see the report and, therefore, he might quite properly feel obliged to hang on to it for a considerable time before sending it out. That would involve intolerable delays. It was certainly not my intention to do that. The amendments will remedy that defect.

Another problem that the association saw was that, as the Bill stands, a doctor might immediately supply a report, only to discover later that the patient expected to discuss it before it was sent. I have suggested a useful procedure, and I shall be happy to adopt it to eliminate that uncertainty and make it easier to obtain access.

Mr. Harry Greenway (Ealing, North)

I may have misunderstood the basic purpose of the hon. Gentleman's Bill. Is it implicit that a report may not be sent by a doctor unless the patient agrees with it, or is it implicit that a report may not go forward unless the patient has seen it? If it is a matter of seeing the report, why can it not simply be covered by what I assume to be normal office practice? A doctor may copy the report, which he would surely do in any event for his own records.

Mr. Kirkwood

The hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) has probably slightly misunderstood the Bill. There are clear provisions. I know that the amendments are long and complicated, but amendment No. 6 substantially deals with checks and balances and with what the patient can do in terms of amending reports or preparing statements if he considers that he cannot persuade the doctor that there has been an explicit error. Indeed, the patient has three options. He may withdraw his consent to the medical practioner supplying the report. We have tried to take careful account of such matters and provide a proper balance.

I stress that in no sense are we asking for the medical practitioner to change his judgment. That would be quite improper. We are trying to give the patient a balanced right, to make sure that any inaccuracies are corrected and matters relating to judgment are at least subject to his statement, in an attempt to elucidate his point of view. I hope that that has dealt with the point, as I am anxious to win the support of the Committee.

Mr. Harry Greenway

I support the general principle which the hon. Gentleman seeks to advance in this important Bill, but I wonder where this complex amendment takes us. Is it implicit in the amendment that at some point the individual may say, "I shall go elsewhere. I am not going along with this"? The insurer may say that a second opinion is required. At what point might that happen?

Mr. Kirkwood

I am giving the right to a patient to withdraw his consent. If there is an irreconcilable dispute between the medical practitioner who is supplying the report to an insurance company or an employer and the patient— it may prejudice a job or an insurance policy—under the amendment the patient has the right to say, "I would prefer not to have this report shown to my prospective employer or insurance company. I would prefer no report to be given." Then the medical practitioner would be in breach of his ethical duty to his patient if he supplied the report.

I know that the hon. Gentleman has a keen interest in these matters. I have been through the amendment line by line with both the ABI and the BMA. That combination, together with the infallible reasoning and inspection of the Minister, gives the amendment an impeccable pedigree. If the hon. Gentleman does not take my word for it, I hope that he will accept the word of the ABI, the BMA and the Minister.

If the amendments are passed, the new consent forms would ask the applicant explicitly to indicate whether he or she wanted to see the report before the doctor supplied it. That is the function of paragraph (c) in amendment No. 3. If the applicant agreed, the insurer or employer would pass that information to the doctor when contacting him for a report. The doctor would be required to give the patient up to 21 days to see the proposed report. Taken with new clause 1, amendment No. 3 would allow for that procedure which would replace the present provision in clause 4. If the Committee agrees with the amendments, it would be necessary to remove clause 4.

We have attempted to clarify other matters, but I shall not go into them all because it would detain the Committee too long. However, I must refer to one or two other issues.

The amendments will omit the 90-day time limit that was in the original Bill. In proposing the limit I was thinking of job applications and applications for insurance policies, and, indeed, the proposal is uncontroversial in those contexts. But, having again had the benefit of consultation with the ABI and BMA, I confess that I did not appreciate that the limit would also apply in other circumstances, for example, claims after death. Occasionally, an insurer will deal with a death from an illness which would normally have a long incubation period. When a death occurs from such a disease shortly after a policy has been taken out, there is a prima facie case for an investigation into whether there has been a fraudulent application. I understand that an insurance company may be reluctant to pay unless a doctor confirms that the illness was not known to the patient when the policy was obtained. That raises basic conflicts with the principle of medical confidentiality. There are strong feelings on the subject in the medical profession. I have tried to steer a path through the difficulties but have to report that I have not succeeded.

It has become clear that any proposal I could make would raise extremely powerful objections from either the insurance industry or the BMA. The issue is far more complex than any other element in the Bill and it has been made clear that my pursuing the matter might jeopardise the Bill. I hope that the House understands that, in the circumstances, the wisest course is to drop clause 3(2). I am satisfied that clause 3(2) would change the law significantly and make it illegal in certain circumstances for an insurance company to contact a doctor after the death of an insured person. Omitting clause 3(2) will preserve the status quo and insurance companies will be able to contact a doctor, and doctors will be free, though not necessarily obliged, to reply.

1 pm

Amendment No. 5 partly reflects the new time limits that I have mentioned. The hon. Member for Ealing, North tabled amendment No. 13. Clause 7 requires a doctor to keep a medical report for five years after it has been sent to the employer or insurer. A medical report is drawn up for a specific purpose. It is not a medical record. I hope that the House is not labouring under any confusion about the two. A medical report is much more finely focused. Clause 7 requires an excessive period of retention. The need is to ensure that someone who has been turned down for a job or insurance should be able to establish whether information or a misjudgment on the report was responsible. That need should arise at or shortly after the time when the application is turned down. Amendment No. 10 would reduce to six months the time for which a report should be kept.

Mr. Harry Greenway

The hon. Gentleman has drawn attention to the distinction between a medical record and a medical report. In the light of his long conversations with insurers and others, can he confirm that a medical report's purpose is to establish whether an individual is basically fit and free of illness or disease? Will he confirm that it is not a detailed investigation but a general statement?

Mr. Kirkwood

I am happy to confirm that it is not a complex in-depth medical investigation. It is, as the hon. Gentleman suggests, a statement of the applicant's fitness to undertake a job or for an insurance policy.

When the hon. Member for Ealing, North speaks to amendment No. 13, I hope that he will bear in mind the fact that a balance must be struck and that, if only for reasons of space, the time for which reports must be kept should be reduced. It is difficult to keep reports for five years. Indeed, they may have to be filed separately. It would be unnecessarily bureaucratic to require reports to be preserved for 10 years.

Amendment No. 6 is fairly complicated. I have dealt with a substantial part of it in attempting to assuage the fears expressed by the hon. Member for Ealing, North in an intervention. The amendment contains the procedure for dealing with errors. If the patient sees the report before it is sent off and discovers that it is incorrect or misleading, he would be able to ask that it be amended. If the information was demonstrably wrong, the doctor would he obliged to amend it and there would be no difficulty about that. However, if the doctor did not accept that there was a mistake, he or she would not change the report but instead would invite the patient to provide a written statement setting out his or her view of the disputed matter. That statement would be included in the report that would go to the employer or insurer along with the doctor's report.

I stress that a patient cannot force a doctor to change his or her professional opinion or to suppress any particular facts. If there is a difference, the solution in the Bill is that both options should be set out. However, if a patient sees a report and decides that it is wholly unacceptable he could prevent the report from being supplied. That is the effect of subsection (3) in amendment No. 6. I accept that that may jeopardise his or her prospects of securing the insurance policy or the job, but it is right that an individual should have the freedom to make such a decision.

Finally, new clause 2 seeks to provide a basic mechanism for enforcement. The Bill is deficient in terms of the sanctions available to individuals under the new rights that it provides. If an individual considers that an employer, an insurer or a doctor is failing to comply with any of the Bill's requirements, he or she can apply under new clause 2 to the courts for an order to ensure compliance. That is an appropriate way to deal with the enforcement provisions.

I apologise to the Committee for detaining it at some length on this group of amendments which make substantial changes to the Bill that received a formal Second Reading. Therefore, it was only fair and proper that the Committee should spend a moment or two considering some of the consequences that flow from this set of amendments.

The amendments are the fruit of substantial consultation. They strengthen and clarify the Bill and I hope that they will find favour with the Committee.

Mr. Harry Greenway

I greatly respect the care with which the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) has prepared the Bill and all the research and discussion that lies behind it and the amendments. I know that his interest is deep and genuine and that the Bill follows up his work in the House on other matters.

I am worried that implicit in the amendments is a right for, indeed an invitation to, a patient to disagree with the doctor and to invite him to change an opinion to which, presumably he will have given due consideration and careful thought, backed up with a medical examination.

Under the amendments, the patient has the right to say to a doctor, "I do not accept what you, Mr. Professional Doctor, say about me in the important matter of my fitness to be insured in the way that I seek to be insured, or for the employment or the job that I seek. I do not agree with your medical assessment. After your seven years of medical training, all your experience in hospitals and the rest, I John Bloggs or Harry Greenway say that you are wrong." If a patient says to his doctor, "I cannot agree with you" he is telling his doctor that he is wrong. I do not say that an individual has no right to tell his doctor that he is wrong, but his opinion is based on a hunch or an idea. We have to beware of the slim knowledge that all of us who are not doctors have of medical and other related matters.

We may have views about psychological matters, such as behavioural problems, a similarly expert question, but teachers with a good deal of expertise in child behaviour and child psychology might find themselves in difficulty if they challenged the careful assessment of a psychologist.

I shall not seek to divide the House, but I am fundamentally opposed to the amendments. The hon. Gentleman says that an individual should be able to say that he does not accept a doctor's medical report. He may accept the good intentions of the doctor's report, but to challenge it means that he does not accept it. In those circumstances, a more satisfactory solution would be for the patient to say that he intends to seek a second opinion.

Mr. Corbett

The hon. Gentleman says that to challenge a medical report would not be to question the good intentions of the medical practitioner, but that is not an accurate description of what the relationship should be between a patient and his doctor. The medical report is a matter of judgment. The doctor will consult the medical records and perhaps examine the patient, after which it becomes a matter of judgment.

As it is a matter of judgment, if the patient does not share that judgment he should be able to say to his doctor that he has got it wrong. That is the purpose of the Bill. If the doctor disagrees with him, he should be able to say to the patient, "I shall put a note to that effect on your records, but I think you are wrong." I see nothing wrong with that.

Mr. Greenway

This is a semantic argument. The hon. Gentleman referred to a disagreement. I used the word "challenge", which is a parliamentary term and it may be too strong a word for what we hope will be a modest disagreement. If a doctor said to his patient, "You have cancer" and the patient's reply was, "I do not", that amounts to challenge. There are people who are told that they have cancer, but who, somehow, know that they do not. There can be disagreement or challenge on as big a matter as that, but that is not what we are dealing with.

We are dealing with a small disagreement or a small challenge about what a doctor says in a medical report that is necessary for insurance or employment. A patient who is dissatisfied with a report prepared by his doctor should be able to say to him, "I have nothing against you personally, but I intend to seek a second opinion." That is how it should be handled, rather than there being an argument between the doctor and the individual about the contents of the report.

Mr. Corbett

I should like the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) to help me with a matter that follows from the remarks of the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway).

The hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire said that we are talking about medical reports that are prepared for a specific purpose at the request of an employer or insurance company. The reports will make judgments based on medical records held by a doctor, but not all those records may necessarily have been prepared and kept by that doctor. Someone may have moved and their records may have followed when that move involved a change of doctor.

I do not understand why the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire thought that it would not be necessary to keep a copy of the report. It will be compiled from records and may involve a medical examination. I should have thought that the copy would be a proper part of a patient's medical records and I cannot foresee a GP not wanting to keep a copy, as it would be part of a package of the patient's medical records.

1.15pm

I should like further to ask the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire about medical practitioners being able to decline to disclose what is in the report where he or she is of the opinion that it is likely to cause serious harm to the physical or mental health of the individual. I do not want to start a semantic argument about the difference between harm and serious harm, but amendment No. 7 worries me because the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire wants to insert: or would indicate the intentions of the practitioner in respect of the individual. I accept that clause 6 is a difficult part of the Bill. It argues about patient's access to reports, and in that regard it is opening another door, but it says that when a medical practitioner properly makes a judgment that door will be slammed shut. I am not sure that the amendment properly deals with that matter.

We must assume that there is a reasonable relationship between the patient and GP. If either side does not like the relationship it has the right to end it. The GP can say, "On your bike" and the patient can say, "I am dissatisfied with you, so I shall find another doctor." What will happen when a doctor looks at the patient's medical records and thinks, "Blimey O'Reilly, if I put that in the report and show it to the patient it will cause serious harm"? Let us suppose that it will cause serious mental or emotional harm. What will happen? Is the GP expected to communicate the contents of the record to the patient? I suspect not, judging by amendment No. 7. When patient and GP come face to face, the patient will say, "will you please let me see a copy of the report that you propose to send to the insurance company?" The doctor will say, "No I cannot do that." The patient will ask, "Why not?" the doctor will reply, "I cannot tell you." The doctor is acting quite properly because the Bill allows disclosre to be withheld where it would be likely to cause serious harm. So the patient persists and says, "Why can't you tell me?" and the doctor says, "I just can't tell you." That leaves a great yawning chasm. It could be interpreted as mistrust at its best, and the patient may feel something akin to deep and terrifying despair and think, "My godfathers, I have a dreadful disease and will drop dead at the end of next week and that is why the GP is not telling me." Of course, that will be rare and, I hope, would occur only in extreme cases. However, it is an interesting point.

The Bill is all about access and one would hope that the GP, in the difficult circumstances in which he or she reached the conclusion that to reveal a report would be likely to cause serious harm, would want a relationship with the patient that would enable him or her to indicate in some way why such action was being taken.

I have to say rapidly to the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire and the Committee that I think that I have uncovered the problem, but I do not know what the answer is.

Mrs. Currie

Is that not just typical of the Labour party?

I have listened to the exchanges of the past few minutes with a great deal of interest. It would probably help the Committee if I told my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) that this is a limited Bill and that much of what he was concerned about is being discussed elsewhere in the efforts we are making to try to achieve voluntary agreements between the Government and the medical profession. Perhaps I should also warn the Committee that I have been a little reluctant to commit a great deal of officials' time, particularly scarce parliamentary counsels' time, to ensuring that every "t" is crossed and every "i" is dotted. I wanted to wait to see whether the Bill made progress. Should it be the will of the Committee and the House that it should so do, I shall try before it reaches the other place, to ensure that some of the necessary tidying up is attended to. We would not wish to see a Bill go on the statute book that could cause anyone major difficulties.

As I understand it—this is my response to my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North—the Bill covers the following possibilities. An individual seeks insurance or renewal of insurance or is involved in an existing or potential contract of employment and in order to maintain or promote that contract, the insurer or employer asks for a medical report. The requester—the employer or insurer —must under the Bill and the amendments before us notify in writing the individual concerned, who for these purposes we should call "the patient". If the patient wants to see the report, he has to say so in writing and quickly. If he does not like it, he can change it and prevent it from being sent. I am looking to the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) to see that I have got that right because it is quite complex stuff.

I can well understand the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North, but I shall offer him a rather different anecdote, which shows why I am increasingly minded to be sympathetic to moves to open up access to medical records. Not long ago I went to the family practitioner committee in my neighbourhood. It has very good people and has recently computerised its records. It proudly punched up my cervical smear test record and said, "You have not had one for ages. You are due for one now." I said, "But you haven't got any of my cervical cancer smear test records on your computer, I had one as recently as—" and I gave the date. It punched more buttons and the computer record was a total blank.

The reason for that was that it had the wrong NHS number. It had one digit wrong. I knew that and I was probably the only person in the entire country who did. It had punched in "LNUN" instead of "LNVN". That was clearly a mistake in somebody's handwriting, possibly one that had been around for a long time.

It is valuable for a patient who is concerned about accuracy and about ensuring that it is his medical record that has been examined to have the right of access. If, however, he prevents the document from being sent, the insurer or the employer will know and can draw conclusions. If the patient is content or does not bother about it and the report goes to the insurer or employer and perhaps produces an adverse reaction, he will still have the right to see the document, but only within a time limit. Under the amendment, the limit will be six months, and we may debate later whether to have a longer period. It is reasonable to have a time limit.

This is not a debate about general access to medical records. It is about an individual's need to know what is said about him or her in a particular document in which he or she has a strong pecuniary interest. It is not a small matter because we may be talking about the possibility of a person losing his job or about someone who is unable to get car insurance to allow him to drive. It is not a small matter to someone like me. I am an asthmatic and, in the past, have been offered insurance only at much increased rates. I regard myself as generally rather fit and I have not had an attack in a long time. I would challenge such attitudes. I can envisage circumstances in which an individual's entire life is affected by an individual report on an individual occasion which is not accurate, not full enough or about the wrong person. That can happen in families in my sort of constituency where father and son frequently have the same name.

Mr. Harry Greenway

Does my hon. Friend agree that, although we are not talking about medical reports, we are talking about a medical snapshot at a given time? If we are not, what are we talking about?

Mrs. Currie

That is right, but, as I am not the Bill's promoter, I am sure p that the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire will respond. The individual is not an innocent, uninterested bystander. A potential pecuniary contract is involved. It is wise to allow a person access to a report which could substantially affect his livelihood. That is why we do not seek to oppose the Bill.

The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Mr. Corbett) referred to "serious harm", which as he knows is the wording in other legislation. From time immemorial, patient records have been regarded as belonging to the doctor. In the current state of the law there is no way that a patient can gain access to those records. The doctor has an absolute veto over them. Surely, in a world of intelligent, educated people, that cannot be right. It no longer fits in with our general view that the patient is a co-operative animal in the treatment of his condition. Every effort should be made to win his co-operation to provide him with information about his condition. The more people live long, happy and fruitful lives, even with chronic conditions such as asthma and diabetes, the more it makes sense to move in this general direction.

I was interested to hear the remarks of the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire about the co-operation of the Association of British Insurers. I am sure that it is in insurers' interest to get accurate reports. It is in the interests of all of us, since we pay the insurance rates, that insurers should not take inordinate risks that will fall on the rest of us. If this proposal becomes law, guidance will be issued. It will not be instituted by the Government, as this is not a Government Bill, but will be issued, I understand, by the medical profession through the British Medical Association. The Government stand ready to assist in drawing up guidelines.

The Bill is somewhat vague. If I may offer the faintest hint of criticism of the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire, it is that I am surprised that, after years of debating these matters, he originally put on the Table a Bill which made a number of well-meaning and well-sounding comments but did not give any power or teeth to what he intended doing. I am sure that, because of the discussions in recent weeks, some of those points will be put right.

Amendment No. 3 ensures that employers and insurers will advise individuals in writing of their right to have access to a medical report, but it puts the onus on the individual to make the necessary arrangements with the medical practitioner within 21 days of notification that a report has been requested. That seems sensible.

The amendment provides for access to a report within six months of its supply to the employer or the insurer. It gives the individual the right to amend or notify a report that is considered to be inaccurate or misleading and to prevent a report from being sent to an employer or an insurance company. The amendment also provides that individuals should be advised that if they wish to have access to a report they should make known in writing their desire to do so. In other words, the amendment sets out clearly the gateways through which the individual must pass. It spells out the rights that form the cornerstone of the Bill.

1.30 pm

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about the validity of consent. The amendment deletes any reference to validity of consent lasting for 90 days, as originally suggested. It is interesting to hear the views of the Association of British Insurers and the British Medical Association on this matter, and the amendment maintains the status quo. However, between now and the Bill's arrival in another place, the hon. Gentleman might like to give more thought to the matter. Although 90 days was too restrictive, a time limit of some kind might be desirable. I offer him merely the thought—it is not a recommendation —that the legislation requiring prescriptions to be offered before spectacles can be issued refers to a validity period of two years. That seems wise, as a person's health can change during that period, and beyond that period we would expect a further prescription to be called for. But if the hon. Gentleman makes progress, perhaps he will devote his time and attention to such issues.

New clause 1 provides that if the individual makes no arrangements to see the report, the practitioner may pass it on. It also provides a necessary time scale by which action is to be taken.

We regard amendment No. 5 as an improvement to the Bill, because it provides that people have the right of access by making an application within a time period—in this case six months. That right was lacking in the Bill as originally drafted and without it individuals would not have been able to find whether errors had been made in the original report.

Amendment No. 6 provides the right to amend or modify an inaccurate or misleading report and inserts the right for an individual to withhold consent—a further deficiency in the Bill as originally drafted.

The Government believe that the amendments represent a considerable improvement on the rather vague drafting that was originally placed before us and would preserve the intentions of the Bill if the House wishes it to proceed.

Mr. Kirkwood

I crave the indulgence of the Committee. I have listened carefully to the debate, which has been both instructive and constructive. As the Minister said, some of the issues are being discussed in other places on other more substantial legislation. I am sure that the subject referred to by the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) will raise its head during our discussions, and I am sure also that both he and I will want to keep an eye on the matter. I assure him that I shall weigh very carefully his remarks as well as the Minister's helpful recommendation and her comment that the Government will assist and try to clear up some of the vaguer aspects of the Bill. In my own defence, I remind the House that we are all amateurs when it comes to parliamentary draftsmanship. We need to strike a balance between the violence that is done to the English language and the clarity of legislation; but perhaps that balance is not right in the Bill as drafted and I am happy to accept the Government's kind offer to assist us.

The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Mr. Corbett) raised some substantial issues. Matters such as the freedom of retention of documents were gone into in some detail with the BMA and other bodies. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that when one is ninth or 10th in the private Member's ballot one is not really master of one's own destiny. The hon. Gentleman spent much time constructively criticising the Access to Personal Files Bill, which I introduced last year. The same applies this year, but more so. My position is even less strong than it was last year. I hope the hon. Gentleman will accept that we shall pay close attention to what he said and seek to make adjustments in the other place if the measure finds favour with the Committee. If the Committee is prepared to accept the amendments, we shall pay careful attention to all that has been said.

Mr. Harry Greenway

I was most interested in what the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Minister said. Although this is a small measure, I enunciated an important principle. If the hon. Gentleman will give an assurance that he will pay attention to that principle, I shall be happy.

Mr. Kirkwood

I give that assurance. If we had more time, I believe that I could give substantial reassurance to the hon. Gentleman. I shall seek to do so at some other time or place. I hope the Committee will feel that these important and complicated amendments, vague though they may be, have been properly discussed and will allow them to pass.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 4 disagreed to.

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