HC Deb 20 April 1988 vol 131 cc815-7
1. Mr. McAllion

To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment how many representations he has now received concerning his plans to introduce a flat-rate community charge in England and Wales.

The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Nicholas Ridley)

A summary of the 1,271 responses received by 31 October 1986, when the consultation period on the Green Paper ended, was placed in the Library on 15 December 1986. Since then my Department has received a large number of letters commenting on specific aspects of our proposals and requesting further information.

Mr. McAllion

In considering the representations, will the Secretary of State take time to reflect on his party's manifesto pledge that it would replace rates with a fairer system of local taxation? Will he also consider the constitutional reality that as he has been unable to convince even his own Back Benchers that the poll tax is a fairer replacement, the other place will be perfectly justified in amending his legislation so that it reflects, not the will of an embattled minority inside the Downing Street bunker, but the will of the real majority in England, Wales and Scotland, who are united in opposition to the unfairness of the tax?

Mr. Ridley

I remember the manifesto on which we fought the 1987 election as setting out clearly every aspect of our proposals for the community charge. I think the hon. Gentleman will find that that is true if he takes the trouble to examine it.

On the hon. Gentleman's second point, in the second Division during the Report stage of the Local Government Finance Bill the Government had a majority of 133. That must be a signal that more hon. Members are in favour of the community charge proposals than it would seem from the Government's paper majority—if the hon. Gentleman takes the majority of 25 as meaning the opposite.

Mr. Squire

As the majority of the population will not be eligible for rebates, is it fair that the poorest should pay the same as the richest?

Mr. Ridley

We debated that matter on Monday. My hon. Friend knows full well that the poorest will not pay the same as the richest because of the very extensive and expanded system of rebates, which takes nine million people out of paying the full community charge.

Mr. Simon Hughes

Given the Secretary of State's comments on the radio yesterday about the role of the other place in this matter, and the subsequent revised advice that the other place can indeed consider both the flat rate community charge and other schemes, what representations does he expect to receive from the other place in the next three months?

Mr. Ridley

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has studied my comments on the other place, which were given not yesterday but the day before. I advised the other place that since the electorate elected a Government with a majority of 101 over all other parties on the basis of the proposals set out extremely clearly in the manifesto, I hoped that their Lordships would not feel inclined to change the principle of a matter which had been approved by the British electorate.

Mr. Jacques Arnold

Has my right hon. Friend had an opportunity to reply to the Labour party's request for exemplification of its system of capital value rating and of local income tax as a means of financing local government?

Mr. Ridley

Yes. I have written to the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) giving preliminary exemplification for the Labour party's proposal of a mixture of capital value rates and local income tax, on the basis of assumptions.

Mr. Rooker

The right hon. Gentleman's assumptions.

Mr. Ridley

I made those assumptions clear to the right hon. Gentleman. I asked him to tell me whether any of them were wrong and, if so, in which way the Opposition would seek to change them. I have yet to have even the courtesy of a reply from the right hon. Gentleman.

Dr. Cunningham

I have replied.

Mr. Ridley

I am talking about the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook. As soon as I have a reply from the right hon. Gentleman or the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham), I shall send a complete analysis, putting right any errors in the ones that I have already sent.

Dr. Cunningham

How does the Secretary of State square his determination to plough ahead with the flat-rate poll tax with the responses given by his colleagues, the Home Secretary and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, in Westminster Abbey today to the questions from the Archbishop of Canterbury, launching the Church urban fund, when he asked: What is he sending us to do? The right hon. Gentleman's colleagues in the Cabinet replied: To share our wealth with those in our cities who are poor, powerless or disadvantaged, and to help them to build a new future for themselves and for us all. How does the Secretary of State square that promise made by his colleagues today in the abbey with his determination to press ahead with the poll tax?

Mr. Ridley

By not imposing capital value rates and a local income tax on the people in whom the hon. Gentleman is interested.

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