HC Deb 24 November 1987 vol 123 cc131-2
11. Mr. Bellingham

To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services how many people are in occupational pension schemes.

Mr. Scott

In 1983, which is the year covered by the Government Actuary's most recent survey, 11.1 million employees were members of occupational pension schemes.

Mr. Bellingham

I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he agree that, in spite of what Opposition Members say, the provisions of the Social Security Act 1986 will be welcomed by millions of people? Does he agree also that such provisions will give them greater independence and will amount to a social revolution that is on a par with the revolution that was caused by the sale of council houses in the first two Parliaments?

Mr. Scott

I totally agree with my hon. Friend. For some years the number of people in occupational pension schemes has remained stubbornly at about 50 per cent. The Act will widen flexibility, opportunity and choice in the provision of pensions.

Mr. Harry Ewing

Does the Minister accept that occupational pension beneficiaries are becoming angry at the amount of abatement in their occupational pensions when they have to retire early? It means that their pension approaches unemployment benefit rates. Many occupational pensioners have to retire early. Will the Minister examine the matter and give occupational pensioners much more generous treatment?

Mr. Scott

Unemployment pay is designed to insulate people against unexpected unemployment. It is not designed to top up occupational pension schemes. The Government were right to move in the direction in which they did.

Mr. Dykes

Does my hon. Friend agree that the rapid development of occupational pension schemes is a most attractive feature of modern society, but they should go hand in hand with the future development of state retirement and old-age pension systems and not be a replacement therefor?

Mr. Scott

I am sure that the state retirement pension should be a basic provision. The more that people can look to the provision that they are able to make, either through personal or occupational pension schemes, the better they will be able to enjoy their retirement.

Mrs. Beckett

Does the Minister recognise that if people do as the hon. Member for Norfolk, North-West (Mr. Bellingham) said and welcome the passage of the 1986 Act, it can only be because they have not read what the Secretary of State has said about the way in which people who took out personal pensions will assume full responsibility for success or catastrophe in their pension arrangements? Does he further accept that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Ewing) said, the way in which the Government are continually eroding the rights of those with occupational pensions is particularly pointed? Does he acknowledge that, in effect, with the Social Security Act 1986, the Government are saying that the age of 55 is the age of retirement, but at one's own expense?

Mr. Scott

On the first point, the Financial Services Act 1986, when it comes into operation, will provide proper consumer protection for those who take out personal pensions. There will be an early opportunity in Committee to discuss the interaction between unemployment benefit and occupational pensions. We shall see who wins the argument.

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