Secondments (Hansard, 23 November 1987)

§ 110. Mr. Soames
To ask the Minister for the Civil Service what further steps he is taking to encourage exchanges between industry and the Civil Service.

§ The Minister of State, Privy Council Office (Mr. Richard Luce)
The Government take every opportunity to encourage secondments between the Civil Service and industry and commerce. A new promotional leaflet has been prepared to help stimulate further interest. A copy has been placed in the Libraries of Parliament.

§ Mr. Soames
Does my right hon. Friend agree that progress in this matter has been lamentably slow? Will he assure the House that he will launch a drive to restore some vigour into the administration of the Civil Service for the betterment of all those clever people who work in it and who would greatly benefit from a spell in the private sector?

§ Mr. Luce
I agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of the matter. However, in 1986 as compared with 1985 there was an increase in outward secondments of 22 per cent, and in inward secondments of 20 per cent. I do not think that that is bad. I am having discussions with other Departments, at official level, to assess the sort of target that we should establish in both directions to achieve a much higher level. I agree with my hon. Friend on the reasons for secondment.

§ Dr. Marek
When carrying out that policy, how will the Minister take account of the generally low pay in the Civil Service compared with the high pay in industry?

§ Mr. Luce
That point is taken into account in our arrangements. Those seconded into the Civil Service are paid the Civil Service salary, and, if necessary, it is topped up by their employers. People on outward secondment to industry are paid the standard Civil Service salary.

§ 111. Mr. John Marshall
To ask the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on the numbers of civil servants seconded to industry in the current year.

§ Mr. Luce
The figure for 1987 will be available in the spring. In 1986 there were 280 civil servants on secondment to industry and commerce, over a fifth more than in 1985.

§ Mr. Marshall
How many secondments into the Civil Service take place in grade 5 and above?

§ Mr. Luce
I cannot give the figure for inward secondment, but for outward secondment it is 55 for grade 5 and above. My view is that the most important area is the middle management level of the Civil Service, where the greatest benefit of secondment can be obtained.

§ Mr. Cryer
Can the Minister explain what safeguards exist in respect of seconding one way and the other? There is a history of civil servants not keeping the private sector at arm's length when dealing with, for example, grant arrangements. Is he aware, further, that on retirement at a very early age, and on very substantial pensions, senior civil servants seem to have a habit of landing boardroom jobs at very high salaries? What guarantee is there that this form of corruption will not be encouraged and developed by such secondment?

§ Mr. Luce
It is outrageous that the hon. Gentleman should suggest that this is a form of corruption. Very tight procedures apply to people taking up outside jobs once they have retired from the service. If the hon. Gentleman has not heard of it, there is an organisation called the Diamond committee, which considers these matters carefully to ensure that there is no serious conflict of interests. When secondments are arranged for existing civil servants, there are clear safeguards with regard to conflict of interests.

§ Mr. Stokes
I know how hard my right hon. Friend and his Department are trying in regard to this matter, but is he aware that, among the many Government Departments, the Treasury probably contains the greatest concentration of brains, but the least amount of practical experience of life, particularly life in industry?

§ Mr. Luce
I shall not comment in detail on that, but a number of Treasury officials are being seconded elsewhere, and that is a process that I wish to encourage.

§ Mr. Skinner
Perhaps the Minister could shed some light on the matter concerning Sir Robert Armstrong— who has not yet been seconded to outside industry, but probably has something in mind — regarding the approaches that he made to senior members of the Government in respect of Mark Thatcher and his involvement with the company Electronic Data Systems and contracts in Britain.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The question is about the secondment of civil servants.